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A lemming asks for further guidance on Rising Sun

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25 Feb 2018 13:29 #263980 by Nagajur
Over the last decade, I feel as though this community has influenced my attitude towards games much like any other "bubble" that one gets in to. Perhaps I'm just a lemming and everyone else is a completely free thinker. However, ten years ago, I remember playing games such as Amun Re with a more smug attitude -- pasted on theme no ameritrashy randomness etc. I would have adored a game like Rising Sun just because there was fighting and a cohesive theme. Now I'm loving highly interactive Knizia and Kramer games and seeming almost smug about a DoaM.

Wave after wave of dungeon crawlers and "theme heavy" DoaM games have come and gone from the table over the last decade. In comes Rising Sun fresh off the presses to present us all with something new and grande. I avoided reading almost every review on this one -- my new attitude is "less is more" and I wanted to try to form my own raw opinion. (maybe from reading too many Michael Barnes and Charlie reviews on MiniatureMarket).

I think I "got" Rising Sun, but what really rubbed me the wrong way were the unique powers existing in a shared pool that everyone, in turn order, picks through. Kemet has this same problem for me. I know "with time you learn them all," and that makes sense for a game you will play dozens of times in a short period. However, even if I wanted to play dozens of times, it would be spread out over years. I have come to really loathe this mechanic. In what would be a continuously interactive game, it completely breaks up the flow for me. Everything is focused on the board and then off you go for several minutes while everyone selects a special power all at once. I know a lot of games, even some I love, have the civ builder/ tableau builder mechanic, and if I think critically on my complaint, I can't quite nail down what makes it different. I just don't think this particular mechanic adds to the game. I hate to say this cause I sound like an asshole, but it seems like the perfect mechanic to add to a game if you have a funding system that allows for unlimited expansions based on the amount of money you raise.

What I am really unsure about though is whether or not this is just a preference based on my hive mind or if it's a genuine response. I feel like I'm living in a simulation. Cthulhu Wars has independent selection, but the few times I've added them to my games, it's been a once per game choice and it's and an optional recruit on your turn only, which doesn't really dig into the flow as much.
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25 Feb 2018 15:42 #263982 by Gary Sax

Nagajur wrote: I think I "got" Rising Sun, but what really rubbed me the wrong way were the unique powers existing in a shared pool that everyone, in turn order, picks through. Kemet has this same problem for me. I know "with time you learn them all," and that makes sense for a game you will play dozens of times in a short period. However, even if I wanted to play dozens of times, it would be spread out over years. I have come to really loathe this mechanic. In what would be a continuously interactive game, it completely breaks up the flow for me. Everything is focused on the board and then off you go for several minutes while everyone selects a special power all at once. I know a lot of games, even some I love, have the civ builder/ tableau builder mechanic, and if I think critically on my complaint, I can't quite nail down what makes it different. I just don't think this particular mechanic adds to the game. I hate to say this cause I sound like an asshole, but it seems like the perfect mechanic to add to a game if you have a funding system that allows for unlimited expansions based on the amount of money you raise.


This is a very legitimate issue, you shouldn't feel bad for feeling it. It's the primary beef with something like Argent: the Consortium which I think is a *wonderful* game and the best worker placement; there are 100 cards on the board you should probably know about, there are 3/3/5 cards respectively in the tableau, etc. I think this information overload is a real problem because, technically, to play well you should know the full game state. So I feel your beef here. I can get past it by feeling like my plays of games are not head to head competitive, who is smartest affairs, and therefore a lot of satisficing goes on.

It is also one of the shadow things in lots of games that makes the heavier end of this hobby incredibly intimidating to new players.
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25 Feb 2018 16:30 - 25 Feb 2018 16:31 #263984 by Michael Barnes
I’m still looking for one single reason why I should give a damn about Rising Sun over:

Cthulhu Wars
Chaos in the Old World
Kemet
Cyclades
Nexus Ops
Forbidden Stars
Blood Rage
Dune
Cry Havoc
Imperial
TI4
Clash of Cultures
Clockwork Wars
Hyperborea
Assault of the Giants
Risk: Star Wars
Star Trek: Ascendency
Star Wars: Rebellion
Senji
Runewars
Battle of Rokugan
Warrior Knights
Whatever Eric Lang’s next CMON DoaM game is
...
...
...
Last edit: 25 Feb 2018 16:31 by Michael Barnes.
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25 Feb 2018 16:49 #263985 by Not Sure
This is absolutely a serious problem to have.

In a game like Kemet, if you're not watching what someone else is assembling, you're going to get steamrolled.

But, I think it's even worse in point-salad euros. Usually if you just push one particular area as hard as you can, you'll win. Someone has to take time out of their game to get in your business, by denying you the awesome upgrade you want. But first, you have to even be aware that such a thing exists. I got talked into a game of Caverna once, and won by just building sheep in every square. I bought a few upgrades for more sheep and more points per sheep. Final scores weren't even close. I didn't set out to be the sheeplord, but it just rapidly became the most obvious move, and nobody saw how bad it was until it was too late. I'd look at rooms available, and think "well that works if have a bunch of sheep, and I do..."

This is fake complexity by going wide in choices, which slows the game down until that mythical time when "everyone knows the game". If a game is still getting played by the time the players know all the cards/powers/upgrades these days, it sure hasn't got long left.

The equivalent in the bad old days of Ameritrash is "go through the deck and pick a card", which to me was the "cause other players to go get a beer" card.
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26 Feb 2018 08:46 #264008 by charlest
I hate that aspect in Kemet. It's the primary reason why I don't own it yet love Cyclades and Inis.

I don't mind the break up in flow very much (the flow in these games is more staccato anyway since you wait for people to perform actions, sometimes for quite awhile), but more that I hate having to read all of these abilities and take them in. In Kemet it's a serious problem.

In Rising Sun, I personally found them easy to digest. There's four categories and I can eliminate many of the powers right away. Their powers are on the cards so we don't need a reference sheet like Kemet, and there's many dupes so it's even less unique total powers.

One thing I appreciate in Rising Sun is that the season cards change game to game, and the different sets can present new challenges and a new feel to the game. The set focused on alliances is very different than the others, for instance.
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04 Mar 2018 20:07 #264500 by Nagajur

charlest wrote: In Rising Sun, I personally found them easy to digest. There's four categories and I can eliminate many of the powers right away. Their powers are on the cards so we don't need a reference sheet like Kemet, and there's many dupes so it's even less unique total powers.

One thing I appreciate in Rising Sun is that the season cards change game to game, and the different sets can present new challenges and a new feel to the game. The set focused on alliances is very different than the others, for instance.


I suppose, but I still think have no desire to play it again but I would not turn it down if the group was into it. I am pretty sure this is a genuine feeling and not a negative bandwagon jump. I am happy to hear that the card mix is not as bad as Kemet. ( I only had the single play and don't own it).

It is definitely a beautiful game and those minis are top notch.

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