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Cultural accuracy and Lang's 'Rising Sun'

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08 Mar 2017 14:51 #244970 by Colorcrayons

Gregarius wrote: Did any Viking Americans feel the same way about Blood Rage?


Not me. But then again, if i wanted something that is published that at least attempted to follow norse mythology, id just play Yggdrasil.
I looked at bllod rage and scoffed because it was so 'Hollywood'. I feel the same way about the rising sun.
Took one look at the over the top ridiculous minis and closed the page.
Its not for me. I like a bit more realism in my fantasy to suspend disbelief. This is just 'Chop socky'.

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08 Mar 2017 14:59 #244971 by Legomancer

Msample wrote: BGG is a pool of people looking for stuff to be offended by:

boardgamegeek.com/thread/1741362/using-term-pimping-offensive

They're fucking GAMES people.


so?
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08 Mar 2017 15:05 #244972 by JEM

Gregarius wrote: Did any Viking Americans feel the same way about Blood Rage?


Well, perhaps relatedly, I had an online conversation with a Swedish archeology boffin who was generally pissed off at the treatments given by the TV shows, "The Vikings" and "The Last Kingdom." Interesting thing maybe is that I think in the case of The Vikings, they started introducing costumes that were less Norwegian Death Metal band, and at least something towards "realistic", though I'm sure still way off the mark for the likes of Lindybeige on youtube etc.

We do this stuff with a lot of things in media, it's not just conflating Asian cultures. I think the TV show, "Legion" is meant to be set in the 1960s going from some cues (I don't know the comic history) but it's not quite on point when you compare it to shows of the era like The Prisoner. Likewise, the 1960s movie The Battle of Britain reflects 1960s fashion style more so than realistic portrayal of two decades previously.

In Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle (fantastic, btw) there's a detailed description of a well-to-do, and essentially deadly late 17th Century fop who pulls a sword on a protagonist. Much is made of how much lace his lace is stuffed with, but when TV makes shows about the era, typically there's a deal more sexy looking leather britches and the like, because it's what contemporary aesthetes prefer.

Yes this is rambling, I find it really interesting, and it makes me wonder about other contemporary biases in the historical record (such as when events are recorded from a distance of some years/decades/centuries).
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08 Mar 2017 16:52 - 08 Mar 2017 16:57 #244980 by san il defanso
Scoffing at other people's offense is just another form of being offended, as far as I'm concerned. I totally think there is room in the board game conversation for discussions on how games treat different cultures, or how different issues are handled. The temptation (as someone who generally tries to be sensitive to this stuff) is to expect other people to share the same level of passion I do, and to assume that a "boycott!" stance will accomplish much besides emphasizing my own stance.

There aren't many minorities in board gaming for a lot of reasons that I don't really know, but I do think it's fair to say there's an exoticism to how game designers approach other cultures. I mean, look at something like Samurai. There's a kind of "oh, how quaint" aspect to it. Is it damaging? I have no idea, but if someone who is from the culture in question raises the issue of how that culture is portrayed in a board game, it's worth taking a look at I think.

*Edit* I said "boycott," which I don't think was used in the post on Rising Sun. I meant "outrage." I know that for me, stating my own outrage serves to alert people how I feel, more than it alerts others to the actual problem. In other words, it tends to make it about me rather than the actual issue. That's probably different for other people.
Last edit: 08 Mar 2017 16:57 by san il defanso.
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08 Mar 2017 16:59 #244983 by Gregarius
I find it all very interesting as well.

With movies, there are always experts in fields (not just historical) that can find many faults with the way things are portrayed: anachronistic cars for car buffs, innumerable fallacies for scientists, ridiculous clothing for historians. For me, I always get thrown off by manners of speech. I'm far from an expert in linguistics, but I always bristle at clear neologisms that pop up in every period piece.

One argument would be that the point of a movie/TV show/game is not to describe historical accuracy, but to convey meaning. If you have to use a modern idiom to get across the meaning of dialog to a modern audience, then you're actually doing them a service. The same could be said for any other inaccuracy-- who cares if that particular model tank wasn't built until well after the war? The point is, it's a ferocious looking death machine.

For a simple entertainment, you have to just let these things go. Instead of demerits for mistakes, give the production *bonus* points for the things they get right. Applaud them for making it interesting enough for someone to go research and find out what things were really like.
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08 Mar 2017 17:11 #244985 by Ancient_of_MuMu

Gregarius wrote: One argument would be that the point of a movie/TV show/game is not to describe historical accuracy, but to convey meaning. If you have to use a modern idiom to get across the meaning of dialog to a modern audience, then you're actually doing them a service. The same could be said for any other inaccuracy-- who cares if that particular model tank wasn't built until well after the war? The point is, it's a ferocious looking death machine.

Famously the makers of the tv series Deadwood tried to include swearing that was historically appropriate and it just didn't work because those words no longer have the meaning they once did, so it had to have the swearing modernized as otherwise it felt silly.

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08 Mar 2017 17:22 #244986 by Michael Barnes
I dunno, this kind of "flied lice" style cultural misappropriation is pretty common...the cornball "Orientalism" you see all the time from Kung Fu Panda to "Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting" to "Hong Kong Garden" to jokes about Japan and "GODZEERA". Or that whole stupendously racist bit in A Christmas Story where they go to the Chinese restaurant. White people are notorious for screwing up depictions of Asian cultures and not getting what the big deal is about it. It comes with the colonialism.

I don't see what the big deal is in the game, there's tons of worse stuff out there like this. It's not a GMT thing, where if they screwed up the historical and cultural references it would be counter to the design goals of the game. I do think it would have been better if it had been a "Fantasy Asia" sort of setting to avoid the assumption that this game is attempting to realistically depict Japanese culture, history and national character.

Can't say that I'm tremendously interested in it either way...although one BGG poster declared that it was already the best $100 he had ever spent. Wow.
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08 Mar 2017 17:38 #244987 by Shellhead

Michael Barnes wrote: Can't say that I'm tremendously interested in it either way...although one BGG poster declared that it was already the best $100 he had ever spent. Wow.


At Kickstarter prices, you need to drink the Kool-Aid before you pledge the money.
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10 Mar 2017 13:29 #245033 by edulis

drewcula wrote: Scott!
I honestly can't remember. Was Shogun / Samurai Swords / Ikusa horrible?


I have a copy of Shogun from back in my middle school gaming days. It was part of the Axis & Allies/ Conquest of the Empire / Fortress America series that got me into board gaming. It has been a few years, but it still gets played sometimes with sake after each round.

It is long, but I like the way armies work, and the tratiorious ninja and the popup Ronin. Also about five years ago my parents came to visit and my dad (who is now 70) played this with my gaming group. Which was pretty cool, because he used to bring my along to his friends house to play when I was a kid. Fuck it,.. its Friday so Scott and his mounted tiger face thing are WRONG its a great dudes on the map game.
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