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TOPIC: Let's Talk: 40K

Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 10:11 #253981

Instead of clogging up the mini painting thread let's discuss the topics of actual game play here. So I've slowly been reading more and more 40k stuff, downloaded Battlescribe, played around with points and such; basically the early addiction signs. There are so many miniature game systems out there that I want to like better than Warhammer's D6 multiple save system, but for some reason there is a charm to the game and rolling those bucketfulls of dice. I really enjoy 15mm gaming but there is something to be said of the benefits of 28mm miniatures (although I don't think I'll take the plunge into terrain at this scale again,takes too much space). I'll find out where I can play later I guess.

Here is my first foray into list building with my old IG, keep that AM name out of your mouth grunts! I made 3 lists building to 1500, but in 8th is that what is a typical point value game is? I wanted to have a couple vehicles to learn the difference in rules, maybe I'll add transports once I get the gist of the rules. Technically I have this all painted... but I started rebuilding and painting in a new scheme from scratch because that is part of the fun of the hobby. I figure I'll at least get the 500 points done and if I'm enjoying the game I'll move on to 1000 and 1500. I have not played 40k at all since the start of 5th edition but these seem like a good start if anyone is willing to take a look and maybe suggest things to include that would help re-learn the game as a focus over being overly competitive.

500 points
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1000 points
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 10:46 #253982

Was planning on making this tread today actually since we've had a bunch of 8E discussion in various places but no unified thread.

So I've played only 3 games of the new edition, mostly with stuff my brother and I have lying around from back in 3e/4e days. We've been playing using the simplified power level points system, about 50 per game. I've added some of the lists up after the fact and they came out to round abouts 1000 points. He's played all 3 games with his vanilla space marines and I've done 2 with my Khorne Demon stuff from Age of Sigmar and some Hellbrutes I picked up for cheap on eBay before Dark Vengeance went OOP and 1 game with some tyranids.

So far of the two "run up and murder them in the face" factions, I think I prefer the tyranids. The genestealers are really nasty, with the ability to advance and charge on the same turn and 3/4 attacks with -1 AP. I just need more synapse units since the only one I have right now is my broodlord from Space Hulk. Probably look to expand them first since I can dip them with OK (for me) results since I'm a lazy/shitty painter and keep the Khorne guys mostly for AoS.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 11:06 #253983

The simplified power system is a masterstroke, regardless of what the hardcore players think. I've ONLY been playing with it...but the games where someone has wanted full points I've just sort figured 50 is around 1000 and then used BattleScribe to point it out.

I'm mostly playing Primaris and Death Guard. Primaris is fun, but they are definitely SMs but with more toughness and lower mode counts. The Repulsor is a lot of fun, its weapons have weapons. It's also a transport, and it can run over folks for mortal wounds.

Reivers are probably my favorite unit. They can deepstrike with Grav Chutes and they have these kind of SMG style bolters. And grapnel guns! They also have some special tactical stuff, flashbangs and such. Very cool "special forces" type unit. And they look great.

On the DG side, I've got a couple of Rhinos I like to load up with Poxwalkers. I've got 46 of those bastards. Very fun swarm. Disgustingly Resilient is GREAT for them.

Getting Mortarion next week...
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 12:42 #253984

Probably try to bump up to 75 power points/1500 regular points sooner rather than later. Playing on a 4'x4' table right now and would like a little more room to breath since there's more fast moving units and vehicles than in AoS where 1000 points is about as far as I want to take it. Also want the points boost since we're finding it hard to take out some of the vehicles/monstrous creatures. Even the lowly Rhino is a bit of a bullet sponge. I think part of it is that mortal wounds seem to be rarer than they were in AoS?

What are your thoughts on the cheaper $80 starter? Mostly in regards to the missing characters.Would these armies just not work well without them?

Edit: In regards to the power points system, it's really awesome for us just starting out and being able to just throw stuff on the table and go, but we'll probably move to the classic points system soon. There's a weapons option for my termagants that doubles the price per model. Which one did they use when assessing Power Points? If anything, we've been erring on the side of keeping the units weaker by not giving Rhino's that one shot missile or whatever, but I don't think I would play a stranger using them.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 13:04 #253986

Da Bid Dabid wrote:
Here is my first foray into list building with my old IG, keep that AM name out of your mouth grunts! I made 3 lists building to 1500, but in 8th is that what is a typical point value game is? I wanted to have a couple vehicles to learn the difference in rules, maybe I'll add transports once I get the gist of the rules. Technically I have this all painted... but I started rebuilding and painting in a new scheme from scratch because that is part of the fun of the hobby. I figure I'll at least get the 500 points done and if I'm enjoying the game I'll move on to 1000 and 1500. I have not played 40k at all since the start of 5th edition but these seem like a good start if anyone is willing to take a look and maybe suggest things to include that would help re-learn the game as a focus over being overly competitive.

I'm also an aspiring Guardsman, but it's going to be a long haul getting a decent army together due to other priorities. I think your lists look good. One thing I've heard on a podcast I listen to is that the Sentinels and Armored Sentinels are a good bet for IG/AM in 8th. Cheap, fast, survivable, and a nice punch for the points. Finding them is tough though... not a lot on eBay that are a good deal. Actually, umm actually they are terrible and please don't bid on any :)
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 14:35 #253989

Thanks for opening this thread! and apologies for hijacking the miniature painting, clearly my fault. Although I'm glad I might've contributed to igniting 40K interest, and IG (not AM, because AM is heresy) in particular.
I agree with Ufe that PL is a good way to start, play beginner games or with kids, but PTS is real thing, because of the load-out options. To put an example, Dabid (SPOILER) has 3 lascannons stuck around in his IG squads. The total cost of those cannons is higher than one 10-men squad. This is a massive advantage in a 1000 pts game, and even more so in smaller games, which is not reflected in any way on PL. But, on the other hand, if you're playing a smaller game, like 25 PL, and you both agree you're going to use the "best" load-outs, I find it doesn't matter so much. And that's actually the best way to start.

I would definitely run 500-750 pts lists first, get a feel of your units and strategies, see what works and what doesn't, and add stuff from there. Having less units on the table is also a good equalizer against more experienced players. Not that you aren't going to get crushed (by someone more experienced), but you will learn why. 40K is one of these games I really enjoy losing, because a loss provides so much more information about the composition of your force and your tactics than a win. Also, the more you play, the less time it takes. Like my first game of 1000pts (against a similarly unskilled opponent) took about 3,5hrs, which is nuts, because it could have been like 1,5 hrs.
My usual games are now 1000-1250pts, but I feel like the optimal size for competitive play is at 1500-1750pts. That's when you get real serious about combined arms and there's room for more advanced strategies.

Dabid, I think you have a good list. Comments:

- That Scion mini-squad. I'd either focus on hot-shot lasguns and make them into armored infantry killers, or do a command squad as tank-killers. I don't think they have enough firepower to do both. Those two full squads in the 1000pts list are serious business.Let me know how it goes with meltas!
- too many lascannons. You will either have to move your squads in which case the lascannons are next to useless, or you will remain stationary, in which case the lasguns are useless. On the other hand, since you have so many lascannons, even if you move your squads, you can expect to score at least one hit. So it might work.
- That demolisher looks wicked, but the combination of flamers and cannon is kinda similar to the lascannon+lasguns. On one hand, you have to move to get those flamers in range. On the other hand, you want to stay stationary to use the cannon effectively.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 16:02 #253992

I thought about it a little bit more, and maybe those 3 lascannons could work really well. If you leave the 3 squads stationary and in cover, they become a dedicated anti-tank unit, very dangerous at that and resilient - those other 8 guards in the unit are basically a meat shield for the cannons. The rest of your army has a lot of mobility. This list can be very effective.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 16:39 #253993

You can also load the squad they are attached to intro a transport and just put them where you want them to go.

I'm still working out what I want out of AM/IG...right now it looks like the core (not pointed out or arranged into a battleforged army or anything like that yet:

4x Cadian shock troops
2x Cadian Command Squads
6x Heavy weapon teams (3x mortars, 3x rockets)
2x Chimera
1x Valkyrie
2x Leman Russ (leaning toward Eradicators)
1x Wyvern
2x Armoured Sentinels with plasma/chainsaw
1x Commisar
1x Knight Commander Pask (in one of the LRs)
1x other character
4x assasins (one of each)

Scions I'll do separately as a special forces group. I'm also thinking about the Last Chancers as a veteran squad, I love those dudes. Not really super into the Ogryns/Bullgryns. Want to keep this mostly tanks and dudes.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 19:15 #253996

Only problem with transports is that you lose at least one shooting turn, and when the units disembark they also count as moved. But still a viable option.

I don't think there's any strategic need for Bullgryns (and definitely not for Ogryns), they're not a game-changer. I like the models and I like what they can do, but I had mixed results with them on the battlefield. If I was striving for total efficiency, I'd probably switch them for another tank/artillery piece.

Assassins are tricky, expensive (both in real money and pts) and since each of them has like 3-5 specific rules you have to keep in mind, they slow down the game considerably. When used properly and/or with a bit of luck, they can turn the tide of the battle. Although I used to have all 4, now I include 1 for 1000 pts and 2 or 3 for 1500.

Commander Pask + Leman or 2 is a killer combination and an ideal fit for tank+troops army. If I were you, Barnes, I'd start with this as a core and then keep adding units. Because you can't go wrong with Pask. Which brings me to the next point... without doing the math, that list of yours is probably way over 2000pts. But the stuff there is good for competitive play, except maybe for Cadian Command Squad (it is general wisdom that those guys and special weapons squads are useless, but since I never played them, against them, and have not seen them on the table ever, that's just an unconfirmed theory...).
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 19:36 #253998

Do you see any value in more than one Commisar?
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 20:06 #254001

I barely have use for one :)
Nah, one is good, definitely helps to keep up the discipline and minimize losses. Thing is, you ideally want to have your guards focused in one place, their strength is in numbers. And you want your commissar there in the middle, he'll easily cover 4 squads, even more. But if one squad strays away, it is to do something specific, not to get into serious trouble (and if they do, they're good as dead anyway, with or without a commissar). So I'd say there's no need for more than one if you're running less than 7-8 squads.
However, since my army is scion-oriented, I always look for a way to bring a commissar (or another Ld booster) up there with my scions (because of the deep strike, they always end up separated from the main forces, and then tend to lose more men to battleshock due to inevitable casualties). So I might get another commissar at some point. Or bring in an inquisitor. Greyfax is such a great model and Ld 10.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 20:50 #254002

I'm probably way overkilling it TBH...I may make 3 LRs the core and stick with a "blitzkrieg" sort of concept.

I'll have an extra Commisar from a Start Collecting box so I'll probably just fip that for $10 on eBay, making an LR, 1 Cadian squad, and 1 HWT come in at about $55 shipped

Revising it- totally just spitballing here...

4x Cadian Shock Troops
4x HWT (3x mortars, one mobile something or other)
1x Command Sqaud
1x Commissar
3x Leman Russ led by KC Pask
2x Chimeras
1x Wyvern
2x Valkyries (because I friggin love that thing).

Probably still too many points to be feasible. But it would be a modular army that could be adjusted as needed by taking away some elements without doing away with the concept.

Sentinels kind of don't fit in there visually, which I care about. Tanks and dudes with air support is what I want, and the extra Valkyrie gives everybody a transport.

Assassins don't really belong either, but I have them anyway.
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Let's Talk: 40K 09 Sep 2017 22:00 #254004

So Barnes my concept of my army is pretty similar to yours - guys and tanks. Might as well put my 1500 point list up as well as its my end point of this concept. 4 Infantry squads with lascannons as the firebase and own zone objective campers, 2 naked squads to rush around and be screens, Scions to deepstrike in and drop the hammer where needed. Hellhounds and Russes spraying lots of fire rush up the midfield and play ultra aggressive, elite slots give support effects to the infantry, mortars and rough riders are cheap adds to fill out the structure for command points. After I play at least one game I'll likely mix things around to keep this concept but do what is most fun. The playstyle I like the least is bringing lots of vehicles but just sitting still and shooting with them. I think Guard artillery seems stronger than tanks, but who just wants to sit in one spot. If my lascannon squads prove to be too static, I'll try to find a way to maybe add some transports and go with a more mech guard core.

I had started with 3 russ tanks but just couldn't make it work point-wise so the 2 lemans and 2 hellhounds was the compromise.

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Let's Talk: 40K 10 Sep 2017 20:10 #254023

I'm just glad I don't see loads of conscripts around here.
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Let's Talk: 40K 11 Sep 2017 12:44 #254057

Heh, yeah...they are a "thing" aren't they.

I don't really like the "dug in" strategy myself. I've played against someone that just piled on the Basilisks and it was pretty boring getting peppered the entire time with them and some other mostly parked vehicles.

I definitely like fluffy over effective, so I'm sticking with this blitzkrieg concept. I have a Valkyrie inbound and may get another, which would put 2 units in vehicles on the ground, 2 in the air.

Not sure if I want to get an extra Chimera or a Taurox for the 4th vehicle though. Kind of want the Taurox for visual variety...but I also kind of wanted to save those for when I bring on Scions.

Thinking about Tyranids too...think I definitely will go with a Nidzilla list. Nothing smaller than a Warrior!
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