Thoughts on SW: Legions?

Mr. White wrote: What about a stand-alone rulebook that allowed you to use all the Star Wars Imperial Assault figs you already have?

FFG already has SW minis on the shelf. Why not get the Legion rules in those player's hands to help grow Legion's initial base with IA gamers?

To be fair, there may be a sold separately rulebook that I don't know about.

EDIT:...uh looks like FFG didn't set these two games to scale. Ooops...

I don't think it was an accident.

Msample wrote:

Mr. White wrote: What about a stand-alone rulebook that allowed you to use all the Star Wars Imperial Assault figs you already have?

FFG already has SW minis on the shelf. Why not get the Legion rules in those player's hands to help grow Legion's initial base with IA gamers?

To be fair, there may be a sold separately rulebook that I don't know about.

EDIT:...uh looks like FFG didn't set these two games to scale. Ooops...

I don't think it was an accident.

Bing bing bing this this this.

I would have been willing to give Legion a passing glance if I could have tried it with the minis I already have for Imperial Assault.

Do I have an AOS Khorne army now because I picked up Gorechosen and liked it? Yes. Do I recognize this as marketing strategy which is also a money hole? Indeed. Am I happy? Pretty much, though I have yet to deploy the skull cannon I built because it came in the box that included the Exalted Deathbringer I really wanted because, hell, it also came with the Wrathmongers I could use (but haven't yet) in WQ.

Point is, they all work together. That "someday I'll use this because I can" is big, dumb part of hobbying FFG just doesn't get.

The decision to rescale the models was a FATAL mistake. "Fuck you, buy it all again."

If this was done on purpose, that was a "dang coaching mistake".

You already have Star Wars Minis gamers in hand...so now you're going to roll out a similarly scoped game, but not make it enticing for your existing players? Damn.

Not to keep beating the GW/FFG drum (but we sort of have to as GW is the forerunner here...and the spurned partner in a recent relationship), but every GW model hanging on the wall of your local can work in AoS, WHQ, as a conversion for BB, etc. Hell, GWs serial-release boardgame attempt (Shadespire) integrates with their main battle game (not just in scale but they have warscrolls to boot). Why didn't FFG do the same? Allow the models in their SW battle game crossover with their board game.

This is one of the ramifications of the strange policy that FFG is trying to take. They began with board games, and that's really their bread and butter. However, they succeeded with X-Wing, giving them a tantalizing inroad into the hobby miniature world. So now they're awkwardly trying to bridge the two, and I'm not sure it's going to work.

They could have tried to make Legions use the miniatures from Imperial Assault, but the quality would have been too low for the expectations of the hobby miniature crowd. So keeping the existing Imperial Assault minis would more or less keep them out of that world, which they seem so interested in bridging. So instead, it seems like they have taken the gamble by hoping that board gamers who aren't interested in painting minis will fork over money again for slightly different scaled minis in a new game system.

I'm not trying to rag on FFG. I love many of their games, but I'm just a little baffled by some of their decisions lately. I know they want to grow into new areas, but I just don't think they can realistically compete with GW.

As an aside, I was a little disturbed when someone upthread pointed out the Star Wars LCG had run for six years. I had no idea, and it just shows how out of touch I am with the gaming scene these days.

It seems selling the Legions rulebook separately is one of the better options of recovery here. The IA players can then sample Legion with their models at home and if they like it well enough, they may go in on the new minis line.

Without that option, you're going to have players like Gorilla who aren't biting on buying a set of models again just to try it out.

Oh, did we mention that the AoS rules are 100% free? You can try AoS at home using any model you want.

The thing with the upscaled/32mm-ish figures is a perfect example of why this game will falter in the long run, once again because of that good old FFG hubris. They've already sold you miniatures that could be used in a SW tabletop skirmish...but now they are going to re-sell you these slightly "extra" ones!

If this were a GW game, like Jeff pointed out, you would be able to use the minis in ANY game that features that unit. Hell, you can even buy a Chaos Daemon army that you can 100% run in both 40k and AOS...and they do things like conversion kits for Tzaangors so you can play in either game with them. But FFG wants to recast Stormtroopers and prohibit players already invested heavily in Imperial Assault from using their figures in a new game. They could have released a tabletop rules set for Imperial Assault and launched it alongside a couple of repackaged army boxes (with IA miniatures), a couple of vehicles, and terrain pieces. But nppe, $100 starter and you know you are going to need two to really get going.

What's more, you can buy a Warhammer model and rest assured that, barring a few examples like Tomb Kings, you can still play with it 20 years from now and they don't lose value. GW is still selling models marked _1997_ on the sprue- that is TWENTY ONE YEARS AGO. Sure, the sculpt isn't current...but the model is, and there are rules for it. Most other miniatures games wind up in clearance or die a slow death over several years before fading into obscurity. I know folks like to say "I'll wait and pick it all up on clearance". Well, good on you for saving a buck but let's face it, once a miniature game hits clearance in most cases it may as well never have existed. And you aren't ever going to play it at that point. You'll load up on discount figures that will sit and two years later you'll be like "I never did anything with those" and you're selling them for pennies on the CLEARANCE dollar.

With GW or Privateer Press stuff (and possibly Infinity now), you can rest assured that your big bucks investment is going to LAST. Even if five years on you decide to divest, you can recoup a good bit of your money because these games WILL STAY RELEVANT. There will ALWAYS be someone playing Warhammer, as long as tabletop gaming is a thing. I really like the feeling that when I buy a model, I think that my kids will still be able to use it ten years from now if they are interested in playing- and it will be with a current, evergreen game system.

Here's the thing. The tentpoles are established. Warhammer, Magic, D&D, Settlers of Catan. Everything else is ephemeral.

Jack- I would argue that Arkham Horror IS a proprietary setting. It is obviously completely indebted to Lovecraft, but the Arkham Horror concept, as we've talked about, is really quite different than proper Lovecraftian horror. The whole "drunk nun on a motorcycle with shotgun kills Cthulhu" thing is a purely Arkham Horror concept. Others have copied it, sure, but I think that the way FFG has reused assets, nomenclature, items, spells, and so forth has done more for building a sense of a unique game world than TI does in its singular iteration.

No, having a unique game world isn't a requirement for board games. But for things like miniatures games, where players are asked to get heavily invested and engaged with it, it is _essential_. Part of my love for Warhammer has to do with the world and the setting, which is the best that gaming has ever seen outside of Greyhawk and/or Forgotten Realms.

Like six or seven posts since that picture and nobody said

"Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?"

I'm so far outside this section of the hobby that my opinions don't really matter, but to me it seems like there's something ti the point way upthread (Barnes?) that said "GW is a model company who also prints rules". FFG is a rules company that happens to be fucking around with models right now.

Doing the same games in different scales instead of leveraging existing assets is just stupid. It's short-term thinking (at best, because it may not be strategic thinking at all).

Not Sure wrote: I'm so far outside this section of the hobby that my opinions don't really matter, but to me it seems like there's something ti the point way upthread (Barnes?) that said "GW is a model company who also prints rules"

The original source on this was the former head of GW (Kirby) who was ousted a few years ago. The statement did seem true from about '02 to maybe '14 or '15. Maybe even a little before '02. GW seems to be back in the hands of game enthusiasts as, like we've mentioned, recent games are fantastic to play. Not just pretty to look at.

In a way, I wonder if Kirby's stubbornness didn't help GW in the long run. He went all in on model production and quality. It was a dark time rules wise, no GW boardgames, no SG titles, but the infrastructure is all there now for the highest quality models in gaming. Now, the solid rules are coming in on top of that.

We seem to be living in a time with GW is the best its ever been. And I say this with extreme fondness for the 80s-90s era and the game designers and artists of that time.

I think that the Count has it right -- they had to do new minis because their Imperial Assault minis would be a non-starter for a minis-game. That side by side figure goes to show just how shitty the IA minis are.

I'll mention that they also had to dodge the scale on the old Star Wars Miniatures game, also the old Star Wars Miniatures: Star Ship Battles scale . . . I have about 400 minis at home that I paid about $50 for that would work just fine if they distributed the rule set on its own. They will be soon -- I imagine it will be on Pirate Bay in the next few weeks.

A quick search for "Star Wars" on BGG coughs up one great big graveyard of pieces and rule sets that didn't go the distance (400+ hits, though multiples are for X-Wing). FFG is walking a very well worn path. As best I can tell X-Wing is the only one to reach the far end in one piece. I hope they have a winner here. Apparently it's tougher than it looks.

GorillaGrody wrote:

Msample wrote:

Mr. White wrote: What about a stand-alone rulebook that allowed you to use all the Star Wars Imperial Assault figs you already have?

FFG already has SW minis on the shelf. Why not get the Legion rules in those player's hands to help grow Legion's initial base with IA gamers?

To be fair, there may be a sold separately rulebook that I don't know about.

EDIT:...uh looks like FFG didn't set these two games to scale. Ooops...

I don't think it was an accident.

Bing bing bing this this this.

I would have been willing to give Legion a passing glance if I could have tried it with the minis I already have for Imperial Assault.

Do I have an AOS Khorne army now because I picked up Gorechosen and liked it? Yes. Do I recognize this as marketing strategy which is also a money hole? Indeed. Am I happy? Pretty much, though I have yet to deploy the skull cannon I built because it came in the box that included the Exalted Deathbringer I really wanted because, hell, it also came with the Wrathmongers I could use (but haven't yet) in WQ.

Point is, they all work together. That "someday I'll use this because I can" is big, dumb part of hobbying FFG just doesn't get.

The decision to rescale the models was a FATAL mistake. "Fuck you, buy it all again."

After talking with Kevin Wilson about why mutant Chronicles failed, and ffg recognized a significant contributing factor was the scale that they decided to use, which was entirely incompatible with previous iterations of Warzone figs.

I guess FFG isn't interested in using the lessons they learned from past mistakes.

This proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't own any imperial assault figs, but if I did, legion would likely get a hard pass from me with extreme prejudice.

I get how they may want to make their models better in order to compete in the market, but up your quality game, not the scale.

Mr. White wrote:

Not Sure wrote: I'm so far outside this section of the hobby that my opinions don't really matter, but to me it seems like there's something ti the point way upthread (Barnes?) that said "GW is a model company who also prints rules"

The original source on this was the former head of GW (Kirby) who was ousted a few years ago.

It's actually Jervis Johnson in white dwarf prior to Kirby taking the reigns. Kirby just regurgitated it in stock reports.

A few people have now mentioned that FFG should sell the rules separate, don't they typically post rules to their games on the website?

Also they just officially announced Leia and the big helmeted Tantive IV guys.

Although I agree that GW makes awesome models, and they do a great job of making their games interconnected, the whole thought that GW models from years ago are usable today is BS. I have the old astro-granite BB and 2nd edition BB- sure I could use the Orcs that came in the old sets, but they look pretty silly with the new larger scale. Also my old Rogue trader and second edition 40K Space Orks look pretty skinny compared the new editions, and my old pewter bikes and tracks, no way are they usable because of scale change. And I pretty sure my multiple boar-riders, squig catapults, and hop-splat guns (not to mention the rules switch in the type of guns Orks are allowed to use) were phased out of the rules along with all sorts of other models. Wasn't this one of the big complaints about GW for years, how you'd buy an army only to have the units not appear in the newest codex?

edulis wrote: A few people have now mentioned that FFG should sell the rules separate, don't they typically post rules to their games on the website?

The problem is the game uses cards for unit stats and dials so you wouldn't have those anyway.

edulis wrote: Although I agree that GW makes awesome models, and they do a great job of making their games interconnected, the whole thought that GW models from years ago are usable today is BS.

I started playing 40k again this year and I think my models from 3rd edition that I purchased around 18 years ago not only are perfectly in scale and usable, but actually look better than the current line.