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Rosewater podcast in defense of Magic's mana system

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11 Mar 2013 22:27 - 11 Mar 2013 22:30 #147050 by dragonstout

Black Barney wrote: i agree that 14 land is obscenely low for a draft. That's what my friend, who complains always, plays. I had done research on it and the number was higher (which is what I played) but I forget the number now.

Dragon, that's cool but two things:
1) I'd want to buy them all at once to make it easier.
2) this isn't your standard draft. We're only 4-5 guys.

I promise you I'd make it quite easy for you; I can put together all the extra cards I have on the list by the end of the night tonight, as I just organized all my cards (and sadly already sold off a bunch of the cards on those lists).

The fact that it's a smaller draft won't matter as much for Cube as it would for, say, Return to Ravnica or Gatecrash, both of which I think I'd especially avoid with 4-5 players because of the guild structure.

Edit: Seriously, Black Barney, I'm jealous of both you and your friend, and how exciting it will be to get a Cube, even if Pauper, pre-made, as well as how mind-blowing it is to draft Cube the first time.
Last edit: 11 Mar 2013 22:30 by dragonstout.
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11 Mar 2013 22:36 #147053 by Black Barney
ok this sounds pretty cool. Let's move this to private messages. If the price isn't too much, and it's easy enough to put together (cuz I have no idea how to do it for 4-5 guys, I only know how to do it TO 4-5 guys).

Let's get all the cards set up for this booster draft thingie, let's ship it to my haus and let's make me write up a decent enough session report for you on our first experience (none of these guys have ever done one, I'm sure of it since it's never come up before).
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11 Mar 2013 22:41 #147056 by dragonstout
I sent a PM.

Black Barney wrote: i agree that 14 land is obscenely low for a draft. That's what my friend, who complains always, plays. I had done research on it and the number was higher (which is what I played) but I forget the number now.

The traditional number is 17-18, with 16 or 19 under unusual circumstances.

So yeah, 14 is a little low. The hypergeometric probability distribution is extremely useful for doing any Magic mana-base calculations. 17 or 18 lands is all about optimizing to hit 3 lands by your third turn.
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11 Mar 2013 23:21 #147061 by Space Ghost

TheDukester wrote: He can defend it all he wants, but it's still a very weak part of what is, overall, a very good game. The fact that Mr. Magic even feels the need to defend it, 18 or 19 years after the game's release, says a lot, actually.

Magic's timing couldn't have been better, really. It became an established presence and gained tons of traction in the last few years before internet usage became a common thing in most homes. Had it been released in 2004 instead of 1994, the first thing the tastemakers, neckbeards, basement-dwellers, BGG thumb-harvesters, and other internet warriors would have seized upon would have been the mana system. There would have been "concerns."


Not that dragonstout needs it since he is a one man Magic wrecking crew, but this is absolutely ridiculous.

It is one of the absolute most integral part of the game. It also makes the game shine in terms of resource management and deck building. The balancing act between putting in resource providing versus cool cards makes for several interesting decisions. The reason modern attempts at fixing magic haven't supplanted it has nothing to do with it being entrenched; they just aren't as good.
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12 Mar 2013 00:35 #147072 by Bull Nakano
I have two cubes, one I spent a lot of time structuring (you can DRAFT goblins!), and one I built out of a junk box for a total of $5 one day when I 0-3ed a pre-release.
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12 Mar 2013 01:13 #147077 by username

dragonstout wrote: Did you listen to the podcast? It's specifically compared to other games that theoretically "fixed" the flaw, and is kind of all about how EVERYone wants to fix the "flaw" without understanding that it's one of the game's greatest strengths. He also notes that yes, of COURSE mana screw sucks, mostly...but that it's worth it.


So if I still don't agree with either of you I didn't listen? Sorry I thought it was just a podcast to instruct and convince people the magic mana system isn't so bad......I didn't realize by listening I had to automatically drink the kool-aid he is pushing.

I make my decks just fine, and actually I detest mana screw enough that I build to avoid it.
(I'd rather weaken my deck a bit with a little extra blending than spend the precious time I get to play sitting with no or all mana) Because in all his fun little stories he brags about how people have memories of that time they made it to turn 7 on two mana and still won. Well what about all the games where you had 2 mana at turn 7 and got crushed or even worse, and not that all uncommon just sit there and do nothing, you barely get to play and you don't win or ever really participate because you drew either all mana or no mana. Those games are a failure of the system and never turn out to be fun for either player unless you're playing the worst kind of magic power gamer. And just like he describes how the human psyche needs something to blame for it's losses do you think these power gamers ever see the win as because their opponent was mana screwed hell no that was skill baby and here comes your unwanted deck building advice from the local stinky neckbeard.

I enjoy magic a lot, have for years and have played at nearly every level ( I never travelled the pro tour and wouldn't because it's a silly thing for a cute little card game with so much luck.) but I consider every game I ever played where I drew no mana or was mana glutted to have been a waste of my time.

Also I noticed he only referenced Duel Masters and implied it lacked depth because of the different mana method (The worst thing about duel masters is the lack of any meaningful in combat decisions...no instants or activated abilities) He didn't analyse any other games and IMO using the bad taste duel masters left in everyone's mouth to prove his false point.
(Also if they recognize that's what was wrong with duel masters why did they release the same exact game again as kai-judo or whatever it is called in 2012.)


This was a company guy spewing the company line.

I get his point that it helps people shift blame, but that doesn't help those of us that are a little smarter and more self aware.

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12 Mar 2013 01:43 #147084 by TheDukester

Space Ghost wrote: ... but this is absolutely ridiculous.

No, really, it's not. It's an indisputably weak part of an otherwise strong game. The mana system is the big turd floating in the Magic punchbowl.

I didn't realize, though, that this was the "Agree That Magic Is Awesome!" thread. I thought some actual discussion would be allowed. But you and Dragonstout don't seem interested in any of that.

Have fun with your bad selves.

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12 Mar 2013 02:34 #147096 by Space Ghost
Oh, I'm willing to have a discussion. The level of my discourse just matched yours. If you have some real reasons why it is a weak system, I would love to hear them.
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12 Mar 2013 02:45 #147099 by Bull Nakano
Rosewater's points were good. The ability to win by/lose to luck DOES make the game exciting (See: Poker). The concept that playing more colours weakens your economy keeps you aware of your deck construction limitations.

What sucks is as you progress through the game the value of lands often drops significantly. When you hit your 7th land drop and realise there are 18 lands left of the 45 cards in your deck, it's a bummer that 40% of your deck is now effectively blank. This relates to the part about luck, but this wasn't what he meant at all. This is a much bigger problem in limited than constructed, since in constructed you should know what to do with that land.

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12 Mar 2013 05:02 - 12 Mar 2013 05:18 #147106 by dragonstout

Squigherder wrote: So if I still don't agree with either of you I didn't listen? Sorry I thought it was just a podcast to instruct and convince people the magic mana system isn't so bad......I didn't realize by listening I had to automatically drink the kool-aid he is pushing.

Not at all, I'm happy to hear disagreements, it's just that your previous comments made it sound like you hadn't heard the podcast since you were just bringing up points already brought up in the podcast. Part of the reason I posted this is because I thought some of his arguments were sketchy, or touched on uncomfortable things: like, a lot of the benefits he talks about are about making it less intimidating for new players in to the game, or adding enough luck to make it possible to beat the best players in the world; he also says things like "humans have short attention spans, just face it" and also describes how it's good to have a crutch, a scapegoat for bad players. These are all things that, *not even just talking about Magic's mana system*, MANY gamers see as universal negatives. Are they? Is the ideal game one that doesn't cater to these kinds of populist lowest common denominator needs? What does an enfranchised, expert player of a game gain or lose from this kind of thing? Is it worth that one awesome game where you got stuck on two lands for 10 turns and won that you'll tell stories about if the cost is that there will be 5 others where barely anything happened because you got mana-screwed?

That's the kind of discussion I was actually hoping to see, instead of just "mana screw suuuuuuucks dude".

Squigherder wrote: I get his point that it helps people shift blame, but that doesn't help those of us that are a little smarter and more self aware.

Exactly: Magic is currently designed in order to try to be the most popular game on the planet; what does it sacrifice in depth to do so? Is it worth a little sacrifice in depth for a LOT of popularity (from the perspective of the "smarter and more self-aware" players; obviously it's worth it from the perspective of the suits at Hasbro)?
Last edit: 12 Mar 2013 05:18 by dragonstout.

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12 Mar 2013 05:08 - 12 Mar 2013 05:09 #147107 by Woodall
This is why Netrunner is the only possible future answer to a game better than Magic. It's got Richard's design marks on it - has 'fixed' the mana screw, but FFG's evolution with influence has retained part of the limitations on multiple color play.

I haven't listened to the podcast and consider Magic to be the pinnacle of gaming, basically. Before I'm stabbed by the pro-Magic folks in here. :)
Last edit: 12 Mar 2013 05:09 by Woodall.

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12 Mar 2013 06:01 #147109 by SaMoKo
The influence system only partially covers the limits on multi-colour play. You'd never see a card in Netrunner that acts like Birds of Paradise, Tinder Wall or dual lands. I'm not necessarily sure if that's a bad thing though, because other cards bring the same principles to the table with less negative impact on the game.

Cards that offer greater flexibility in Magic almost always suck at everything else. They exist solely to boost your economy for a short duration to get off that precious lightning bolt, fry the royal assassin, and place down your own annoying creature. In Netrunner you can't replicate the ability to add more influence as the game progresses, but in a roundabout way certain ICE will give you the same benefit - shitty protection but leverage in long term economy.

The difference is that these cards are guranteed in Netrunner without relying on synergy (luck) to nearly the same extent in Magic. Those damn birds don't mean anything if I don't draw that lightning bolt, but Tollbooth works just fine regardless. I guess it sacrifices some depth in deck building at the advantage of providing a reliable strategy during gameplay.

Magic certainly provides some decisions on how much I should saturate a deck with an off-colour, how many cards I should sacrifice to make activating them reliable, and so on. I don't think any other game does that so well, but it comes at a price once the cards are shuffled and the game starts.

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12 Mar 2013 06:46 #147110 by Woodall
Right, that's why I said it retained part of the limitations on multiple color play. ;)

But you typed the extrapolation out for me and that was very nice of you in this late hour.

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12 Mar 2013 08:14 #147115 by tscook
Netrunnner dunks over Magic, the backboard shattering and the crowd leaping to their feet. Land for mana will forever be boring and unfun, deal with it.

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12 Mar 2013 08:21 - 12 Mar 2013 08:48 #147117 by tscook
am i actually supposed to listen to some nasally asswipe talk for 28 minutes about a shit mechanic y/n

e: 2 min mark, a life without cars would fucking own you dipshit

e2: 4 min mark, lol what, THE ONLY RESOURCE SYSTEM IS MANA EVERYTHING ELSE IS STATELESS CHAOSSSSS

e3: 6 min, lo-freakin-l, the only source of variety is arbitrary limitations based on a shitty mechanic, OK CHIEF

e4: 9 min, strategic complexity, lmbo, bboring risk management tyvm

e5: 12 min, false narrative cool beans

e6: 17 min, holy shit

e7: 19 min, hahahhaha he dropped F:AT's own "elegance", DRAMA

e8: 23 min, finally a somewhat cogent point

e9: 24 min, aaaand he throws it away

e10: 26 min, no see netrunner you annoying turd

e11: 28 min, first he made magic then he made netrunner and improved every aspect of magic jfc
Last edit: 12 Mar 2013 08:48 by tscook.
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