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Magic and the "dominion" problem

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17 Aug 2013 00:47 - 17 Aug 2013 00:54 #158764 by dragonstout

jeb wrote: And bioball is on it here. You want to cast spells as "late" as possible. It's a little riskier in the iOS game because that timer can count down so fast you might miss your chance to hit the hourglass before it advances. but if you are comfy with that, I save a lot of instants to be cast during the opponent's end step.

Example:
It's my turn. I have a 2/1 Haste guy in my hand and a spell that deals 3 damage (a "bolt"). I can't cast both on the same turn, as I don't have enough mana.
I have a 2/2 guy out, and they have a 3/3 guy out.
Inexperienced players might: bolt their guy, attack for 2 and pass the turn.
More experienced players might: pass the turn.
--> They attack with the 3/3. I don't block. They put down another 3/3 and pass the turn. In their end step, I bolt the 3/3 that's still standing. Untap for my turn, play my 2/1 Haste guy and attack for 4. Now it's a race--his 3 per turn vs my 4 per turn--he needs to hang back to block, or at least he might, this is a tempo switch. If I had taken the other path, and they had that other 3/3 in hand; they would have cast it, and I would be back in the same situation as we'd started in, except now I don't have my burn spell anymore.

I just fully read this, and I think it's a bad example. Either way you end up with the "tempo switch" (I don't agree with this either, really, but whatever), whether you play it beforehand or not; what causes that is just that you have two 2-power guys and he has one 3-power guy. Literally the only difference is that: bolt first, and you end up with opponent at -2 life and you at -0. Bolt later, and you end up with opponent at -4 life and you at -3. Which one's better has to do with what the life totals are, but the end result on the board is the same. If the opponent was at 8 life, then casting the Bolt earlier was probably the better choice given no other changes to the board, especially if you're at a low-ish life total. If the opponent is at 4, then obviously you want to do play #2. If the opponent is at 5 life, then you want to do neither play (you want to play the hasty dude, attack with both guys, and then next turn Bolt your opponent's face). Actually, that's what you want to do if they're at 4 life too, really.

The REAL reason to wait to play the bolt would be that you don't KNOW what he's going to play, and because he might play something better than his current 3/3. Anyway, it's very dependent on life totals, primarily because as I said, bolt now or bolt later in the above example, the only thing it changes is the life totals, not the board.

Edit: this is why, by the way, I rarely think that even games with simple beginner decks have "no decisions". A matchup with literally nothing but vanilla 2/2s and 3/3s, Lightning Bolts, and Giant Growths will have TONS of decisions.
Last edit: 17 Aug 2013 00:54 by dragonstout.
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17 Aug 2013 07:42 #158774 by dragonstout
And speaking of bad examples: my example at the end of the long annotated game, while technically correct, is far from the best illustration of why to hold off on blocking. Instead, imagine: you have Veilborn Ghoul and enough swamps to regrow him. Your opponent has 4 1/1s. You're both at 20, and it is your turn and you attack with the Ghoul. Now figure out what happens if he immediately blocks with a 1/1, vs. what happens if he does not do so until the last minute. That will be more drastic and obvious a difference.

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17 Aug 2013 08:08 - 17 Aug 2013 08:10 #158775 by bomber
I will try to work these out but honestly, right now, I'm just not comfortable enough with the flow of play to "get it", for example just reading your comment, I do not know what you mean by "immediately blocks" vs "blocks at the last minute" as my head is saying "huh? dont blocks come with the attack, which is just one point in time".

unless you mean by last minute, he doesnt block my attacks until his life is 4 or less? In which case, I guess you're saying that if he blocks right away, my ghoul dies, he gets no damage, he loses one of his 1/1 dudes (but next turn hes just adding more and more of them since his mana is always going up)

erm, if he waits, he still gets more and more 1/1 dudes, so erm, he loses life to the ghoul?

you see, I need to sit down and actually look at the phase of play, where and how mana is used, where and how I can do stuff "whenever I have mana untapped" and when its limited to a specific point, heck, I even had to look up now to make sure you can only block if something is untapped

I really appreciate your help DS, but I'm still just trying to wrap my head around how it works, its difficult for me to explain, Ive not played this kind of game before, so the "flow of play" and "how it ticks" just isnt transparent to me, even though I realise its pretty basic, I just dont see it intuitively - right now - so I will see if I can make sense of your example (and the other one where you said do the math) once I can think through whats going on without having to actually write down EXACTLY STEP FOR STEP whats going on with the game - yeah, I feel pretty dumb, but it is what it is.

(by the way, why the hell are "cubes" called cubes. Confusing!, actually the number one thing that put me off netrunner was using "themey" words which just dont make sense to a noob instead of just "deck" or "pile" or "hand" etc)
Last edit: 17 Aug 2013 08:10 by bomber.

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17 Aug 2013 20:14 - 17 Aug 2013 20:14 #158803 by ThirstyMan
I agree with some of what you say. MtG is as ridden with jargon as other CCG's and people who have been playing a long time may not be the best of help at this stage. Deep play analysis is not what you need when you are starting, more basic ideas are more useful.

In answer to your blocking question, the idea is that after the block has been placed, by your opponent, you can still play an instant like Giant Growth on your guy to kill his blocker and allow your guy to survive before the block is resolved. Also he can then play a Giant Growth on top of his card (if he has one) to refuck you. All of this happens before it gets resolved.

I dont think it is particularly clear that instants can be played ANYTIME even just before a block is resolved. Might help to try out the challenges on MtG 2014, these are usually along the lines of how can you kill this guy with this hand in one round. The good thing about them is that they help you understand the timing aspect of play.
Last edit: 17 Aug 2013 20:14 by ThirstyMan.
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17 Aug 2013 21:51 #158806 by bioball

ldsdbomber wrote: (by the way, why the hell are "cubes" called cubes. Confusing!, actually the number one thing that put me off netrunner was using "themey" words which just dont make sense to a noob instead of just "deck" or "pile" or "hand" etc)


To be fair, Netrunner explains what those terms mean in the rulebook. And the reason for themey words is because you have to refer to same thing which as two different states. A runner's hand- The Grip- has different constrains than a corps hand- HQ- so the terminology is so as not to confuse the two.

A Cube is called "A Cube" because is a big pile of cards (300+), selected somehow, that could fit in a starter box- which is a cube in shape...almost. But "Rectangle" is not as snappy and its all about branding.

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18 Aug 2013 00:17 - 18 Aug 2013 00:20 #158822 by dragonstout

ldsdbomber wrote: unless you mean by last minute, he doesnt block my attacks until his life is 4 or less?

Yes, this is what I meant. I wasn't talking about timing or anything; it was just that in your write-up, you wondered why at first, he wasn't blocking, and then later on, he decided to start blocking. My point is that there is no NEED to block until he is at 4 or less life, and that blocking on an earlier turn than that just costs him a dude that could be pinging away at your life.

A very very common noob error is to start chump-blocking ("chump-blocking" just means a block in which the blocker dies and the attacker does not) long before it is necessary, because they are scared of getting to too low a life total. The only life total you should be afraid of is *0*.
Last edit: 18 Aug 2013 00:20 by dragonstout.
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18 Aug 2013 02:59 #158825 by dragonstout

ThirstyMan wrote: In answer to your blocking question, the idea is that after the block has been placed, by your opponent, you can still play an instant like Giant Growth on your guy to kill his blocker and allow your guy to survive before the block is resolved. Also he can then play a Giant Growth on top of his card (if he has one) to refuck you. All of this happens before it gets resolved.

I dont think it is particularly clear that instants can be played ANYTIME even just before a block is resolved.

This is not true, mainly because there's no such thing as a block being "resolved". If you really want to get into nitty-gritty timing about combat, it's split into the following steps, during each of which instants can be played after the beginning of the step:
1. Beginning of combat (this is when you'd use something that can tap an opponent's potential attacker, before it has a chance to attack)
2. Declare attackers (at the beginning of this step, attackers are declared; it's infrequent that instants are played here, but if, for example, the opponent attacks with a flier, and you want to surprise him by instantly giving your guy flying and then blocking, NOW is when you'd play the instant)
3. Declare blockers (at the beginning of this step, blockers are declared; this is BY FAR the most common step to cast instants in, as now all the blocking is locked in)
4. Deal damage (everything still alive deals damage to each other at the beginning of this step; it's extremely atypical for instants to be played here)
5. End of combat (once again, EXTREMELY rare that anything is played here; I'm actually surprised they haven't changed the rules to eliminate this step yet)

The Declare Blockers step is where most of the tricky instant business happens, after blockers have been declared but before damage has been dealt. If in doubt about when to use some combat-related ability, use it THEN.

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18 Aug 2013 03:33 #158829 by jeb
Duels of the Planewalkers does not allow for instants in the Beginning of Combat, Damage Dealing, or End of Combat steps. Just FYI. Technically, clicking "advance" in Main-1 takes you an instant window where you would cast Twiddle or whatever, acting as the Beginning of Combat step, as you can't escape back to Main 1 from this point.
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18 Aug 2013 04:03 #158830 by dragonstout
BTW, Duel of the Planeswalkers is definitely the best way to learn the real rules, even better than learning from a friend. Still, since you're a boardgamer and used to reading rulebooks, it wouldn't be a bad idea to also read the Basic Rulebook here:
www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules

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18 Aug 2013 06:49 #158837 by ThirstyMan

dragonstout wrote:

ThirstyMan wrote: In answer to your blocking question, the idea is that after the block has been placed, by your opponent, you can still play an instant like Giant Growth on your guy to kill his blocker and allow your guy to survive before the block is resolved. Also he can then play a Giant Growth on top of his card (if he has one) to refuck you. All of this happens before it gets resolved.

I dont think it is particularly clear that instants can be played ANYTIME even just before a block is resolved.

This is not true, mainly because there's no such thing as a block being "resolved". If you really want to get into nitty-gritty timing about combat, it's split into the following steps, during each of which instants can be played after the beginning of the step:
1. Beginning of combat (this is when you'd use something that can tap an opponent's potential attacker, before it has a chance to attack)
2. Declare attackers (at the beginning of this step, attackers are declared; it's infrequent that instants are played here, but if, for example, the opponent attacks with a flier, and you want to surprise him by instantly giving your guy flying and then blocking, NOW is when you'd play the instant)
3. Declare blockers (at the beginning of this step, blockers are declared; this is BY FAR the most common step to cast instants in, as now all the blocking is locked in)
4. Deal damage (everything still alive deals damage to each other at the beginning of this step; it's extremely atypical for instants to be played here)
5. End of combat (once again, EXTREMELY rare that anything is played here; I'm actually surprised they haven't changed the rules to eliminate this step yet)

The Declare Blockers step is where most of the tricky instant business happens, after blockers have been declared but before damage has been dealt. If in doubt about when to use some combat-related ability, use it THEN.


Yes, thanks for that important point of clarity. Clearly, I was talking about step 3 and step 4 which seems pretty obvious. To say that there is no such thing as resolving attacks/blocks and then talk about step 4 seems pedantic, but hey, who the fuck am I to talk about it?

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19 Aug 2013 07:56 #158875 by bomber
Thanks for the challenges tip Andy, really a big help, like I stared at the battle tactics challenge 3 and I was like this is either not possible OR I'm missing a rule or timing issue, this taught me that the oaky +7 thing can be put down AFTER blocks are assigned.

I also found out that creatures being played count as spells, so the campaign which I completed without knowing either of these facts I was wondering what the point of all the counter spells i got sometimes when no one played any spells.

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19 Aug 2013 08:40 #158876 by dragonstout

ldsdbomber wrote: I also found out that creatures being played count as spells, so the campaign which I completed without knowing either of these facts I was wondering what the point of all the counter spells i got sometimes when no one played any spells.

Yeah, literally the ONLY thing that is not a spell is land. Everything else must be cast as a spell. Once it's on the battlefield (in the case of creatures, artifacts, and enchantments), though, it's no longer a spell, it's a permanent.

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19 Aug 2013 15:19 #158892 by Black Barney
bomber, challenges are really for advanced players that want a huge challenge. It's not the best thing for relatively new players and could be overwhelming. That being said, the EASY challenges serve almost as a nice tutorial on timing of certain events.

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19 Aug 2013 15:31 #158895 by bomber
yeah thats what I found, some of them I realised, OK, I'm missing some timing rule or procedure here, otherwise it doesnt work, so it was helpful, but actually just the last one totally freaked me out, the one where you need to get rid of some gargoyle (a flyer), even though 1 flier is left behind on their side???, then you have brainstorm some cards from the deck, sacrifice some to get counters on some other card, use that to put a hulk into play, sacrifice THAT to some card to get some dragon which you plucked from the bottom of your entire deck somehow and THEN know what devour did to be able to boost him enough to get the job done.

I had to look that one up but even afterwards I was like, erm, I think that was a bit too much to take in


(actually as I said to dragonstout, I also got a bit perturbed by the previous one, where you had a black knight with protection from white, but I tried that white spell that destroyed all creatures and I'm like, ha, cast that, black knight is protected, I win, WAIT why is black knight dying, then I clicked "more info" and it said like "if spell does not say "target" then protection doesnt work so then I'm like, fucking hell, if I played that for real on the table I would not think to look that up, I would just assume protection from white meant from everything, so then I was like, shit, do I need to look up every keyword in some big rules reference every time I see a new one just to make sure it works exactly as it sounds like it should

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19 Aug 2013 15:33 #158896 by bomber
by the way (and I will post here in case its useful to others)

is there an excel list with all the cards indexed by card number to check off as you get stuff (if I get a box of a few thousand), or in general, if someone gives you a box of 4000 cards, how do you begin inventorying them, never mind putting them into decks

(I think we'll start with mono decks and the intro decks which are mono-ish in theme/feel at least, even if I think most are 2 colour decks, and see how we get on)


After some reading I know realise that I think I'm not a Trevor, but a "diversity/fun Timmy".

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