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Outback Crossing Review

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17 Aug 2014 22:15 #185199 by Scott_F
I played Lewis & Clark about a month or so ago and just hated it. Sitting at the table and doing calculation in my head pretty much regardless of what other people do is a terrible game for me. I can't even think of any positives the game had in my opinion, it was extremely long, difficult to learn the strategy for new players, and I didn't care that much for the artwork.

Also played Triassic Terror today. Brand new game for me, area majority and a mean one at that. I loved it. Roaring at friends as my T-Rex devoured their herd and gained me points in an area was awesome. It wasn't that difficult to teach either but it offered up good decisions from turn to turn. And it isn't a game where you sit and calculate the optimal move for yourself; other players will fuck with your plans in the meantime in too many ways and often your choices are limited. That being said there is a decent amount of strategy still and there are definitely good moves and dumb moves if you are smart enough to see them. Looking forward to another game, we had five for the first one and it took maybe 2 hours or so to teach and do 2/3 of the game before we had to call it.

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17 Aug 2014 22:26 #185200 by repoman

DukeofChutney wrote: The older school german games, don't really give me a great thematic immersion payoff, but they are so effortless to learn and play. Beowulf, Modern Art, T&E, Tichu, Chinatown, require so little effort. They have tough decisions and strategy, but they don't require me to mentally tally lots of resources, actions, turn orders and how they all fit together. In each of these older games I'm really only trying to manipulate one to three things to my advantage, not ten.


Whoa. Hang on a minute...Moment of clarity coming up...

This paragraph made me put words to what I did NOT love about the new COIN game, Fire in the Lake.

At their heart all the coin games are really just complicated area control games. Now they are tied to their theme pretty well but that just makes them thematic euro style games. In Andean Abyss I can keep tabs on the variables in play and make my tough decisions with them in mind. In Fire in the Lake I think it's gone a step too far. There is too much to keep tabs on and so much can change in a single play that you must re-evaluate the board on every turn.

I had the disquieting feeling that I did not enjoy my play of it and now I know why.

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17 Aug 2014 22:58 #185205 by Michael Barnes
I'm playing Winner's Circle right now with five of my best friends, four glasses of sangria down...laughing, cheering, cussing at each other...I couldn't possibly give less of a fuck how "immersive" or "narrative" this game is. Having the time of my life.

/drunk post
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17 Aug 2014 23:20 #185208 by ubarose

repoman wrote: Played a game of Andromeda on F:AT Thursday. I guess it falls into the ERP as it is a euro and it was out out in 1999. It has a couple good things going for it. It's set in space. It has a lot more depth than the simple rules and board would have you believe and it uses a thing called "the cosmic ashtray" for random cube pulls. Otherwise it's an area majority game that in no way equals or surpasses El Grande. Other than being set in space.


It is far lighter than El Grande and usually only takes about 30-45 minutes to play. If I had gone with a 90 minute game we would have been there for 3 hours.
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18 Aug 2014 00:51 #185214 by bomber

repoman wrote:

DukeofChutney wrote: The older school german games,.... are so effortless to learn and play. .... They have tough decisions and strategy, but they don't require me to mentally tally lots of resources, actions, turn orders and how they all fit together. In each of these older games I'm really only trying to manipulate one to three things to my advantage, not ten.

.


aka the Sacksonesque (and later Knizia) method of game design. AKA "how game design was before it went horribly wrong and the kitchen sink brigade turned up frantically trying to justify why you should buy just a messy and lesser variant of something that came before"


PS
are you from Leeds, or just living there, whereabouts in Leeds?

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18 Aug 2014 06:51 #185219 by Erik Twice

ldsdbomber wrote: good to hear about Steam as I'm hoping to try that one again soon.

The official expansion maps seem kind of expensive though so I will hold off until I know its a keeper, or maybe the free fan made ones work? Also curious,

If you want some free maps, you can try out the fan made Age of Steam: Portugal. It's an easy map with very small tweaks but still feels very different from the two base maps, it's very fast paced and really teaches you how to be on your toes.

You can also print Age of Steam Expansion #1 England & Ireland. England is a vanilla map but it has a very fun colour distribution that makes building very interesting while Ireland is pretty ugly and nasty. Its version of Locomotive sucks, Urbanization removes a cube instead of building a city and most cities don't accept goods. It's a really great map that I recommend to try out if you fancy some risk.

Still, I think that for 20$ and probably much less, the Steam expansions offer a lot of value. Expansion #2 has one of the best maps I've ever played (Great Britain), a really fun map (China) that is competitive with 3 players and competitive AND cooperative with 4 as well as a more basic 3 player map in California. It's totally worth the money, I think it's one of the best expansions you can get for a game, it's clear that Morgan Dontaville improves on previous designs a lot.

I saw a thread about getting Steam out of Age of Steam, but is it possible to play the other way, i.e. can you use (or cheaply supplement) the stuff in the Steam box to play the Age of Steam rules? I know the AOS tracks are single sided and more limited, and the goods work differently, but it seems like if it works in one direction it should probably work in the other, right?

No matter what the Winsome fans say, you can play most Age of Steam maps with Steam. They are practically the same game! In fact, Steam was supposed to be Age of Steam 3rd Edition and changed at the last minute.

The thing is that both games are practically identical, the big change was the production system. In Age of Steam cubes come out slowly based on dice rolls, which adds a degree of randomness to an otherwise very controlled game. In Steam players bring the cubes themselves through the auction which is much better. But the numbers are the same, there's the same amount of cubes and so you can play the maps of one system with the other.

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18 Aug 2014 06:51 - 18 Aug 2014 06:57 #185220 by DukeofChutney
yeah I should of put Acquire on the list, and arguably 18xx. Despite the complexity of learning 18xx, and the length of play, you only really need to track the trains, and the likely changes in share value, everything else is semi important.

I'm in Cross Green atm. But I work in the city centre as a cycle courier / study at the uni. I'm southern, not a local.

@ Repo

Interesting assessment of Fire in the Lake. Obviously im very interested in the game, but based on your thoughts I could see it sinking with me. I liked AA, but don't know if i'd want to work my short term memory circuits harder for the same experience. Hopefully I'll get to try someone elses copy at some point.
Last edit: 18 Aug 2014 06:57 by DukeofChutney.

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18 Aug 2014 08:25 #185221 by ThirstyMan
I entirely disagree that AA is just a complex area control game with theme and narrative tacked on. The use of cards is innovative and provides realistic narrative. It is this that drives the story not the actual area control which is not essential for all factions anyway. This is the beauty of asymmetric win conditions.

Given all the above, A Distant Plain is more complex than AA because factions are deliberately set up to help each other even though every faction has its own separate win condition, this makes it much harder than AA where all the factions are at each other's throats. I think it is this aspect that probably also makes Fire in the Lake more complex than AA. A lot more wheels within wheels.

PS I can play chutes and ladders drunk and have a great time, it doesn't make it a good game, it just means I got drunk and had fun. Actually, forget the game and just drink and cuss each other...it will still be fun.

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18 Aug 2014 09:28 #185223 by Gary Sax
Honestly, to me, the US-Karzai, Warlord-Taliban dynamic is the most interesting thing about COIN. And by extension the South Vietnam-US and Vietcong-North Vietnam.

I actually think the American Revolution COIN game they have proposed is fascinating in this respect, British-Indian-Revolutionaries-French I believe, I may pick that one up or the Gallic wars one as my first COIN.

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18 Aug 2014 09:33 #185225 by repoman
That American Revolution one is bullshit. Shoe horning a theme onto a game where it doesn't fit.

The British never sought to change the hearts and minds of the Americans. There was no COIN operations at all. Putting the Continentals and militias in the roles of terrorists sits poorly with me.

The French involvement was one more of money, supplies, and their Navy. Not one of active participation. They should be represented by a card not as a faction.

As well, the Indians were a supplement to to the British armed forces not really a faction all their own in the struggle.

I give the entire project the Repoman frown of disapproval.
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18 Aug 2014 09:42 #185226 by Msample

repoman wrote: That American Revolution one is bullshit. Shoe horning a theme onto a game where it doesn't fit.

The British never sought to change the hearts and minds of the Americans. There was no COIN operations at all. Putting the Continentals and militias in the roles of terrorists sits poorly with me.

The French involvement was one more of money, supplies, and their Navy. Not one of active participation. They should be represented by a card not as a faction.

As well, the Indians were a supplement to to the British armed forces not really a faction all their own in the struggle.

I give the entire project the Repoman frown of disapproval.


This is my fear with the COIN system. Like the CDG engine of a couple decades ago, designers are rushing to force fit a subject into a system poorly suited towards it. The AmRev as a COIN subject? Seriously ?

I'd rather get Docktor's chrome laden AmRev CDG than this shit.
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18 Aug 2014 11:23 #185235 by Gary Sax
It has to be better than Washington's War/We the People, which I despise. It's funny that a genre I love started with a game that I fucking hate.

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18 Aug 2014 11:58 #185242 by DukeofChutney
why'd you hate it so much? I've not played but I like Hannibal a lot and they seem pretty similar.

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18 Aug 2014 12:02 - 18 Aug 2014 12:15 #185243 by ThirstyMan

repoman wrote: That American Revolution one is bullshit. Shoe horning a theme onto a game where it doesn't fit.

The British never sought to change the hearts and minds of the Americans. There was no COIN operations at all. Putting the Continentals and militias in the roles of terrorists sits poorly with me.

The French involvement was one more of money, supplies, and their Navy. Not one of active participation. They should be represented by a card not as a faction.

As well, the Indians were a supplement to to the British armed forces not really a faction all their own in the struggle.

I give the entire project the Repoman frown of disapproval.


Also, quite frankly, the war is boring as shit. Two aristocrats fighting over which of them is going to be the next landlord. Fucking boring war.

Ireland maybe, Irish government, British government, Protestant assholes, catholic assholes. Not so sure a bigger treatment might be better as there were certainly more influential factions than this (left wing revolutionaries, right wing nationalists, professional criminals, middle class activists all of whom had different agendas). Perhaps a Triumph of Terrorism approach may be better. Certainly, the Spanish Civil War has more than four factions and wouldn't fit the COIN categorisation.
Last edit: 18 Aug 2014 12:15 by ThirstyMan.

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18 Aug 2014 12:05 - 18 Aug 2014 12:53 #185244 by Gary Sax
I know I'll take shit for this, but I feel like it's a poor area control game paired with a bad wargame---both of which where you have very few options. The British especially have a BORING fucking game where they can barely move most of their generals, etc. But not in a challenging way, just in a hey, guess what, here you go you can move that huge stack once this turn. The events are also fucking stupid, being mostly throwaway except for a few HUGE ones that totally swing the game. The state control stuff is pretty dumb, to me, completely incentivizing the strategy of getting those key single space colonies like Delaware.

My personal reaction would be "why don't we just go play a decent area control euro, they seem to have gotten the hang of those mechanics" if I was faced with playing it. FWIW, I have only played We the People but my understanding is the update Washington's War is very similar.
Last edit: 18 Aug 2014 12:53 by Gary Sax.
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