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× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Let's talk about... Wiz-War

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21 Jun 2018 11:33 #275924 by Not Sure
That's been my working assumption for six months now.

4) is a new and disheartening development, but no surprise.

I don't think boxed games fit their model anymore. Which is fine, I just haven't bought anything FFG in a long time. They and I have parted interests.
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21 Jun 2018 12:27 #275931 by drewcula
Alternatively, I suppose it could herald a license renewal.
Maybe FFG and/or Asmodee will make a new edition.

Either way, I doubt wizards will learn nothing until 2019.

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25 Jun 2018 10:15 #276147 by hotseatgames
Charlie just extolled the virtues of Wiz-War in his latest piece. Hopefully this can sway some non-believers.

playerelimination.com/2018/06/25/the-mad-genius-of-wiz-war/
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12 Jul 2018 17:53 #277419 by Colorcrayons
Piddling around with cards again while waiting for a few resin casting supplies from Smooth-on to be delivered. A large load of casting is about to occur.

This time I'm tackling a few creatures. I dislike the "mythological" theme that FFG had going on, so I'm doing my own thing while using their creature designs as a base.

The Boggart resembles the Treasure Goblins* found in Diablo 3 rather strongly, so I took this opportunity to make a slight thematic based tweak.



* for those unaware, treasure goblins are random monsters in Diablo 3 that appear on rare occasions and if you manage to kill them before they escape through their portal, leave behind a few bits of treasure that they have scavenged.

The minotaur will stay as is, because its critically thematic to the Labyrinth setting.
I also find the drake to be acceptable as well.
The Genie will be repped by the spellbook familiar found in the Silver Tower game. Because the genie allows extra cards to be held.
The Grendel will be a mechanical automaton type of artifact creature. Big and brawny strength. A mobile pain inflictor.
The Spirit Snake will be repped by a wraith. More generic yet more accessible to the casual user as well.
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13 Jul 2018 08:27 #277437 by san il defanso
We were at an expat family camp this week, and it was a fun time to play a lot of games with a lot of ages. That means I got to teach Wiz-War, a four-player game with a younger adult, myself and another thirty-to-forty something, and a 12-year-old. I was out when someone took control of my character and dragged them back and forth over a hex of pain until I died. I was at full health. It was infuriating and awesome. The other older adult had to leave, so I filled in and eventually won the game for her. It was a great time.

I also tried to teach my older son, who had been on me to try it out. I was worried the cards would have too much text, but I separated out a few easier schools of magic that I thought he could handle. It went pretty well I think, although he didn't have much inclination to read through the cards, unless they just had a line or two of description. It was fun though, and it convinced me that I do prefer the giant deck of all the cards to having to trim it down.

The thing I appreciate most about Wiz-War is how it is instantly obvious what you should be doing, and it does not make you jump through hoops to figure out how to accomplish it. Get treasure and/or kill the other wizards, and here are cards designed to do just that. It's just so elemental.
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20 Jul 2018 18:35 #278010 by Colorcrayons
Still waiting on resin casting supplies. :/

But, at least I finished one of the supplemental 15 card decks.

This is the Totem school, now just known as the Rune deck.

I couldn't stand the theme of the totem school, and this seems to fit into what we recognize mystical wizard battles in a post AD&D world. I'm still using mostly MTG art assets when possible, but the glyphs themselves come from Hearthstone. I like the art direction of Hearthstone and think it would fit wonderfully in Wiz-War. Yet sadly, there are not enough relevant assets to glean from.

The cards are all FFG designs with the exception of Rune of Force, Rune of Forgetting, and Inscribe Rune which are mine.

Click the image to get a legible image. Sorry about the size.

File Attachment:
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31 Jul 2018 17:52 - 31 Jul 2018 17:54 #278854 by Colorcrayons
I got a lot of casting done this week and still need to do a bit more, but that will have to wait until after Gencon to finish that off.

In the mean time, here are a few examples of the card work I've been doing, to keep the love flowing towards Wiz-War.
One that is completely original, one a modification of a not very well thought of spell from 8th ed, and one classic card updated to conform to 8th ed rules, respectively. All of which could use some feedback.









See you all at Gencon.
Last edit: 31 Jul 2018 17:54 by Colorcrayons.
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31 Jul 2018 19:22 #278859 by Not Sure
I love me some Fill Square With Slime.

I'm seeing some implementation details there, though. If you need 3 Cracks to remove it, but Attack spells are captured in it, how's it supposed to go away?
What happens if I hit it with a 4-point Waterbolt? Is that one Crack, or 4 Water damage to the Cube?
How many Water spells are even in the deck? Clarifying the effects here would be good.

My hate for Wall of Earth is pretty well-known, but Wall of Force seems like huge expansion to Create Wall. It's immune to Cracks, and also works as a Counterspell. I'm presuming Destroy Wall still works. I'm not of the opinion that Wiz-War cards need to be balanced, but this is just significantly better in all ways than the other card.

I like Cast the Stones a lot. Wiz-War needs more "mess with the spellbook" spells, that don't involve shuffling the entire deck.
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31 Jul 2018 23:54 #278867 by Colorcrayons
I don't know if I can be able to integrate Fill square with slime into 8th ed. It wasn't a clear card that I could see to begin with. to get a clear ruling might take more room than one card can accommodate. I find the spell storage angle of the creation to be interesting and could lead to some fun stuff. But after reworking that card so often, all I can think to help make it work in 8th would be to remove the crack stipulation, and make it vulnerable only to flood or other stuff like dispel, etc. As for how many waterspells I have going on, Im trying to up the count of that and lightning, but nothing has the numbers of fire. I think I have five in the deck. But the conflict in attack spells, but then water works... its too messy. I'd love to figure out a way though.

Wall of Force could definitely be described as create super wall. I was contemplating just making it a duration spell, and may still do that. Im not all fired excited about wall of force, but wanted to try something different based of wall of earth. Yeah, I see no reason why destroy wall wouldn't do the trick, or dispel, or negate neutral, or the other usual suspects for fairly troublesome spells.

i agree about needing more deck manipulation. I put the time limit on it because I think the pressure is fun to watch so that makes for 30 seconds well spent for those who become paralyzed, and it definitely keeps the turn flowing. Ive only tried it twice though, so no cue if combined with cards like meditate will make this a bit too OP.

Thanks for giving your thoughts. Helpful as always. I totally missed the crack part, and thats a pretty big oversight.

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01 Aug 2018 10:58 - 01 Aug 2018 11:01 #278887 by Not Sure
Wall of Force could be fine, if there's only one in there. Like I said, I have no belief that Wiz-War needs to be finely balanced. Given that there's usually two Create Walls, a third that doubles as a Counterspell isn't a bad thing, but I also might trim it from a deck. You did a good job at tightening up the nonsense of that card.

Fill Square with Slime is hard. It's not "Fill Square with Stone", so it doesn't have to be removed, but it's a big hindrance with the turn-end thing. The old deck had 2x Waterbolt and one Waterwall, as I recall. Few enough that it could be called out on the card, so it wasn't easily removed in Classic either.

Maybe "Water attacks are not absorbed by the Cube, and 1 Crack from Water damage destroys it" Or 2 Cracks if you want, but that's 6+ points. Depends on the Water spells in the deck, because you'll either need 2 spells or the 6 if you go to 2 Cracks. 1 Crack with only a couple of Spells that can do that seems fine at first glance. If Waterwall/Wall of Water exists in your set you may want to doublecheck the effect here.

The only other thing I could see that has the potential to cause Cracks but not be absorbed is the Wizardblade. "Cube is immune to attacks from Items" might easily handle that.


An aside:
Waterwall wasn't a very clearly defined card either, especially the horrible interaction with Pit. One of the many reasons Pit had to go away from my Classic set.
Last edit: 01 Aug 2018 11:01 by Not Sure. Reason: waterwall!
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01 Aug 2018 23:48 #278973 by Colorcrayons
I'm sitting in my room at Marriott / Gencon.

Upon reflection, I think duration if=s the best way to even Wall of Force out a bit. Give it a chance to last longer, but still can be used as a wall of earth. But less infuriating and confusing since it actually does sit there for a min if you don't boost it. I think that simple tweak should be enough to make it not just create super wall unless you dedicate resources.

Slime cube.... oy. I don't have the mental resources right now with the stress of the convention to tackle that.

The turn end deal was meant to represent being unable to cast any spells whatsoever whilst in the cube. You're immersed in jello afterall, so spell casting should be nigh impossible.

I should let that one go until Im dont with the convention. Im demoing Cosmic Encounter for 8 hours tomorrow, so I'll need some wits about me to be a fun demo'er.
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11 Aug 2018 01:13 #279590 by Colorcrayons
A very hefty update to the the Wiz-War cards side of the project. Over 100 cards are uploaded and completed in final form barring any errors or other oversights I may have made.
Don't worry though, I wont bog down bandwidth uploading them anymore other than brief examples.

For those curious and/or bored enough to check them out, here are links to the google drive I set up just for this project:

Core Deck

Critter Deck
(Creatures/Transformations)

Runic Deck
(formerly known as Totems)

Bauble Deck
(lots of items)

Curse Deck
(take that screw you cards)

Bedlam Deck
(obstacles to litter the Labyrinth)

Classic Cards
(original card being updated is next to each example)

Original Designs

Orphan Cards
(cards not quite fitting into the theme of any particular supplement, but being made available for completion and variety's sake)

This should make it easier to view and I can update those links as I add or subtract cards without force bumping this topic with updates. Plus, people can comment there as they see fit to further avoid thread clog. So I'll leave these links active and update this post when required. If you don't see any cards in a link, they'll be updated soon.

As I've mentioned far earlier in the thread, all of this is designed around the conceit of a core deck to build from and adjust to taste. Mostly to help newbs but also for ease of set up and play.
You take a core of 85 cards, and add one 15 card supplementary deck.
Or take out 15 cards randomly from the core and add two 15 card supplementary decks.
I prefer the second option. (especially if we don't see what was taken out)

As for these, I've taken the time to do some grammatical editing for consistency and to tighten them up where needed. They were a bit all over the place with the expansions and now was a good chance to deal with that.
I also took this opportunity to reassign some of the energy values found in the cards. It came out to about 1/3 of the deck to contain energy, which should be more than enough. I made the choices a bit tougher on whether to use a Magic card as energy or its spell effect. Many might balk at this, but this is key to getting this damn thing operating smoothly instead of haphazardly like it once was with the magic schools method.
Other than thematic reassignment of names and art, they are about 95% what you would find in 8th ed from FFG designwise. Blah blah blah. etc. etc.
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02 Sep 2018 18:35 - 02 Sep 2018 23:28 #280979 by Colorcrayons
I gotta share this new card design we've been playtesting for the past couple weeks.



Ahh, poor Vudu Doll. Like all stuffy dolls, all it wants is to be hugged. That is the entire purpose of its existence.

The intention for the design of Vudu Doll is to curse your opponent by inflicting them with the responsibility for the well being of Vudu Doll. Failure to do so results in harm for the controller. (Keep in mind, that the design basis for my retrofit doesn't recognize the dismissal of maintained spells at the controller's whim)

If the target neglects to give it attention by activating it, then it will run to the closest wizard to get a hug, and then hurt itself with self-harm as it realizes that nobody wants it, and hurting the controlling wizard in the process until it dies or gets the attention it seeks from the controlling wizard.

This causes an interesting dynamic in the game. Does the controlling wizard waste 2 movement points activating Vudu Doll so that they don't incur a point of damage? And if the wizard does activate it, what does he do with Vudu Doll? Does he send it to inflict a point of damage to something, and further exposing the Vudu Doll to an attack?

So, the sum result of Vudu Doll is to harm the controller over time (or all at once if the stuffy is attacked) and to force the controller to decide how it wants to spend its speed allotment.

Does Wiz-War need such a design? Hmm... maybe not strictly speaking, yet it's been fun enough using it to warrant the time it took to design and playtest it.

Curses , in general, seem to be a bit under-developed and relatively unexplored design space, so it seems to fills a niche.

I also find the unintentional observation of pathos from the perspective of the stuffy doll, to be a bit maudlin, which I am likely just projecting from my own experiences in life.

The Vudu Doll reflects our human need for connection and consequently, love, and the abuse that can sometimes come with the need for that love. We seek out love, and when we are denied or rejected, we sometimes inflict abuse on ourselves from low self-esteem that may be been born from neglect or abuse. Whether to get attention or just to feel anything. In hurting ourselves with our behavior, we also hurt the ones that we are attached to and who love us. Seeking validation from others when we feel neglected, we may continue the abusive cycle.

The Vudu Doll is certainly a pitiful, co-dependant creature. Never loved by anything, and assaulted by everything.

But don't let that empathic 'Toy Story 3-esque' observation stop you from frying this sucker with a Lightning Bolt.
This is Wiz-WAR, not some mamby pamby co-op game full of feelings and flowers. I assure you, it deserves it.
Last edit: 02 Sep 2018 23:28 by Colorcrayons. Reason: Updated card image correction
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02 Sep 2018 20:06 #280982 by Not Sure

But don't let that empathic 'Toy Story 3-esque' observation stop you from frying this sucker with a Lightning Bolt.
This is Wiz-WAR, not some mamby pamby co-op game full of feelings and flowers. I assure you, it deserves it.


Not as much as the doll's owner does. Try to get them both in the same hallway with that Lightning Bolt.

Good card. It reminds me of the awful eventuality of the old horrible curses Slow Death or Walking Death (the worst), but I like the built-in six point limit from the dolls health. For a zero energy activation that sees fair, or at least as fair as Fireball. It seems like it might need a note about what happens to overkill damage on the doll, and if that gets applied to the maintainer.
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02 Sep 2018 21:25 - 02 Sep 2018 23:34 #280984 by Colorcrayons

Not Sure wrote:

But don't let that empathic 'Toy Story 3-esque' observation stop you from frying this sucker with a Lightning Bolt.
This is Wiz-WAR, not some mamby pamby co-op game full of feelings and flowers. I assure you, it deserves it.


Not as much as the doll's owner does. Try to get them both in the same hallway with that Lightning Bolt.

Good card. It reminds me of the awful eventuality of the old horrible curses Slow Death or Walking Death (the worst), but I like the built-in six point limit from the dolls health. For a zero energy activation that sees fair, or at least as fair as Fireball. It seems like it might need a note about what happens to overkill damage on the doll, and if that gets applied to the maintainer.


Do you keep it close by and try to somehow protect it? Or do you send it away/lock it up in hopes that nobody will screw with it? Is it more vulnerable when not close by? Tough choices. I like how your own choices can be your worst enemy.

Excellent catch about overkill damage. The intent is to not let it go above 6 damage unless you manage to weaponize Regeneration, or its ilk, by casting it on the Doll. (Which is incredibly mean and very rewarding.)

I should make note of that in the second paragraph of the card, something to the effect of: "Until Vudu Doll is destroyed, each point of damage that it suffers, is also suffered by the target." That stipulation should be adequate to trigger the end of damage accrual.

I am still on the fence as to whether or not I should make the Doll an Attack spell. Prudence says I should side with attack. But we haven't had any issues thus far. It is likely to change to that unless I can find a good reason to keep it as a Neutral spell.

[edit] The Lightning Bolt example above is why I changed this to an attack spell. I don't know why it never came up before now (though it may have something to do with taking advantage of casting this on a mage far far away so that they couldnt immediately respond with their anger), but being able to cast as a neutral, then fry the hallways with lightning and doubling damage against a wizard isn't clever. The card above has been edited to reflect this oversight and the overkill.[/edit]

The 2 movement point activation cost has proven to be more important than the damage itself, which was originally unintended yet proved to give it a good bite. Once it was cast on a wizard who was down to 8 points and was on their way to home base with a treasure. They burnt the Doll themselves, by directing it through a Wall of Fire twice, so that they could continue to progress quickly. The Doll isn't all bad though, that same player in an earlier game won by killing 2 other wizards by Flame Breathing them with the Doll.

The deck design is such that, with only a few exceptions, every card is a one-off copy. So only 1 Fireball in the deck, unlike the old edition that had 3. The doll isn't clogging up the portion of the deck that enjoys simple damage infliction.

I like the Doll a lot more than Slow Death, even though they share the same design space since the Doll offers you the illusion of choice.

Thanks, Not Sure. Your input, as always, has been invaluable.
Last edit: 02 Sep 2018 23:34 by Colorcrayons. Reason: Updated card image correction to reflect suggestions above

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