There are too many Dungeon Crawlers. There are too few Dungeon Crawlers.

I don't think what we're beating here can technically be called a dead horse. In fact, I think my stick just went through what was left of this horse and is just beating the ground. But here goes.

BaronDonut was over to my place the other day, and we got it into our heads that we wanted to play a dungeon crawler. This was out of nowhere, as usually we play competitive card games and wargames and Euros and all sorts of other things that don't involve little painted dollies. I love 'em, but can rarely get anyone to play with me. And I have a plethora of them, even though some of them are on the chopping block, waiting to get axed.

Excitedly, I pored over my shelves, attempting to pick the perfect, one-shot dungeon crawl.

Warhammer Quest Original: Too simple, too old, too goofy.
Warhammer Quest New: Good? But the AI completely sucks and doesn't really offer a challenge.
D&D AS: Fun as a non-taxing solo thing, but, again, simple AI and wash-and-repeat makes it a little boring among friends.
Massive Darkness: On my "to sell" pile, as if offers just the right combination of complicated set up and grey-as-paste gameplay.
Imperial Assault: Way too complex. I like the skirmish mode, but at this point (like Netrunner) it's less a game than an Associate's Degree you can't prove you got for something no one really gives a shit about.

Then there was a bunch of stuff that was Dungeon Crawl adjacent, like Shadespire or Runebound or WizWar, none of which hit the spot. (I long ago sold Claustrophobia, as there's only so much Paladin-on-demon action I can take, plus I found it flat and fiddly.)

Finally, we settled on Space Hulk. It was a blast. We played the Exterminate scenario, and it all literally came down to my last Genestealer vs. BaronDonut's last Space Marine. A lucky shot in the 15th round won him the game.

Seriously, though: the last good game in this genre was from 1989? Why isn't there just a basic, skirmishy, fun dungeon crawl, one that evokes but doesn't ape Space Hulk, that uses a variety of figures and monsters from the classic annals of dungeon crawling?

For all of our talk of this being a saturated market, why isn't there anything actually good in this space?

Claustrophobia is fantastic. I can't imagine liking Space Hulk but feeling like Claustrophobia is flat.

Also, Gears of War.

Problem is they are like mediterranean restaurants. One has the best falafel, one has the best hummus, one has the best tabbouleh, and another has the best baklava. But none have the best of everything. And then there’s an Israeli joint that has the big condiment bar.

I have favorites in the genre, but I don’t think there is a single game that does it all. Even Gloomhaven, which is by far the best game in this class, doesn’t check all of the boxes.

But thinking back over al of them I’ve played...which is impossible because there have been so many...it really is kind of hard to beat Space Hulk and Dungeonquest. Even with the layers of complication other designs have tried to apply.

The more recent D&DAS games are quite a bit better than the original 3.

Hm. I think there's a combination of things that make Space Hulk a lasting triumph and it has a lot to do with atmospherics. For example, the Marines are very slow, so the imagery of stalking through a wreck with death around every corner is constant. Plus, the appearance of the Genestealer models simply screams "scuttling alien" and that kind of stuff can carry a game, even if the rules don't. This is why so many long-timers at GW used to say that they were a model company with game rules. The stories behind GW games simply make them better a lot of the time.

Thankfully, in Space Hulk's case, the rules aren't an impediment to enjoying the atmosphere and meaningful rolls of dice can provide story moments in and of themselves, just as you described above. But it's also a game where everyone starts at max level. There is no "loot" or gear to be found that changes the way the game is played. This was a big problem with 1st Ed Descent with the power jump presented by Silver treasures. Suddenly, what was a challenge became an afterthought. SH doesn't have that. Here are your Marines. This is what they can do. Here are your Genestealers. This is what they can do. Play.

The best one I've found recently is The Others. It does have the gear problem and the learning curve for the heroes is steep. But I've enjoyed all of the games I've played when it's come time to do a crawl. I just traded for Kevin Smith's TMNT which is also set up like Space Hulk (These are your turtles. This is what they can do.) in that you select special moves at the start and that's it. There's no gear and no upgrades. Plus, all the scenarios are just straight fights like SH. I have to get a couple games in to see how it shakes out.

charlest wrote: Claustrophobia is fantastic. I can't imagine liking Space Hulk but feeling like Claustrophobia is flat.

Also, Gears of War.

Part of it is simply the theme. But I was expecting to really like the dice allocation mechanism when I first read about it, and I just didn’t.

I wish that Gears of War was still available. I understand that Doom was a bit of a rehash, but that fell flat for us, too. I’m just a complete Goldilocks on this subject.

Anyone ever try the Breeding Pits expansion for Frostgrave?

I've been thinking about this a lot myself.

Dungeoncrawlers seem to be an 'at home' affair. And my son greatly favors Space Hulk. We've played a few Silver Tower scenarios, and I had fun, but it fell flat for him. He's a Chess fan, so I think it's the head-to-head nature of SH that partially appeals, but mainly the setting I'm sure.

I greatly prefer Silver Tower to either oWHQ or DDAS, but the demand isn't at home at the moment, so it's been a bit on the back burner of the paint queue. It's been steady at 70% done for about 6-7 months now.

For me, I'm digging the small warband/team painting sessions that Underworlds and Blitz Bowl provide. This isn't related to game play, but in a given weekend I'd rather paint a project I can see through to completion rather than part of a longer project that will take a few more weeks.

Going by 'It Plays, It Stays' Silver Tower is on the bubble. I do wonder if I should move it on and replace it with either DDAS Ravenloft (my favorite of that line) or Street Masters. Both faster playing co-ops with bubble gum plastic figures that I won't feel the need to paint. Also, DDAS is so simple it doesn't need much of a rules refresh each session. Haven't played Street Masters yet.

Barnes may be right here, and Space Hulk and oDungeonQuest might just be the best one-two combo of dungeoncrawlers.

Michael Barnes wrote:
The more recent D&DAS games are quite a bit better than the original 3.

Agreed, though I don’t know why they even bothered with the miniatures. They’re awful. I would have preferred standees.

I’ve been thinking about altering some of the original tiles. The single best improvement in the newer games is that tiles draw from 0-3 monsters, instead of just one per.

Jackwraith wrote: There is no "loot" or gear to be found that changes the way the game is played. This was a big problem with 1st Ed Descent with the power jump presented by Silver treasures. Suddenly, what was a challenge became an afterthought. SH doesn't have that. Here are your Marines. This is what they can do. Here are your Genestealers. This is what they can do. Play.

The best one I've found recently is The Others. It does have the gear problem and the learning curve for the heroes is steep. But I've enjoyed all of the games I've played when it's come time to do a crawl. I just traded for Kevin Smith's TMNT which is also set up like Space Hulk (These are your turtles. This is what they can do.) in that you select special moves at the start and that's it. There's no gear and no upgrades. Plus, all the scenarios are just straight fights like SH. I have to get a couple games in to see how it shakes out.

I think the idea of how loot gets handled is microcosmic of problems with the whole genre. I don’t think I’ve ever received a little loot card that got me excited about what it did. It’s all either “If you flip a moonstone in broad daylight when a dragon is within 3x your Station, gain +1/(+2 circumstantially) on your next 2/fight level non-dragon attacks” or else it’s just a card that says “+1.” In other words, either too complex, or mind-numbingly simple. Nothing just right.

The Others came from CMON, and I just plain skip stuff from CMON now. This is the first I’ve heard of it being good. It sounds complicated.

Just scouted eBay and the FFG Revisted edition of DQ is going for more than the GW original? What?
Is it that good?

Was DQ part of the FFG partnership with GW? I thought it was a swedish design that has seen a few different publishers? Either way, both FFG and GW editions would be oop...what gives on the FFG prices?

Shadows over Brimstone or whatever is touted as exceptionally good.

SEAL Team Flix is a dungeon crawl by all definitions except the “roll dice vs skill check” criterion, and arguably loot.

I've been wanting to try this obscure entry into the dungeon crawler category: The Undercity: An Iron Kingdoms Adventure Board Game.

That’s funny, I was just thinking about that one as one of the many also-rans in this category. I really liked Undercity...it had some neat stuff going on. It’s all area-based (not squares or whatever) which simplifies things

There might be hope for this new entry? Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage Board Game

Holy FUCK!

Standard (non-painted minis) $79.99 MSRP
Premium (only difference is painted minis) $159.99 MSRP

Mr. White wrote: Just scouted eBay and the FFG Revisted edition of DQ is going for more than the GW original? What?
Is it that good?

No. It's awful and stupid just like the original DQ.

Turn 1: You find a pit. Have to turn back.
Turn 2: A spear trap launches and kills you.
...

The price for the FFG reprint is probably because it includes characters that could be used in Descent (both eds), Runebound, and Runewars. Completists for those are probably seeking it out. Also, the production value is FFG's normal approach, which is quite a bit better to a lot of modern eyes than 1987 GW.