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Why Legacy Designs Are Developed By Jerks

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01 Nov 2018 14:49 #285090 by hotseatgames
The only thing giving me pause about Betrayal Legacy is the "consistent group for 14 plays" bit. My group isn't consistent twice in 2 months.

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01 Nov 2018 14:52 #285091 by SuperflyPete
Based on some information I recently received but cannot discuss, the secondary market is a huge consideration in product design for games. I have a very hard time thinking they didn’t weigh the options of having semipermanent options which would reduce sales due to a strong secondary market vs. torched earth design that would alienate people who won’t buy into a game that would have no value after playing.

I think Exit! Type games are less prone to this as they are cheap, experience games that would only be played one time total, versus a campaign style game that demands many plays.

Maybe I’m just cynical.

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01 Nov 2018 15:20 #285096 by Josh Look

Jexik wrote: I disagree and really want to get a group for Betrayal.

Come on Pete. You know destroying things is fun.


Do you honestly expect Betrayal to work? The game without all the Legacy bits hardly works 50% of the time.
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01 Nov 2018 15:20 #285097 by Not Sure

SuperflyTNT wrote: Based on some information I recently received but cannot discuss, the secondary market is a huge consideration in product design for games.


If anything, this is the BGG tail wagging the dog. I have serious doubts that the vast majority of games sold ever change hands. Once six months go by, they all turn into pumpkins anyway. Witness Barnes being unable to give shit away.

I have a very hard time thinking they didn’t weigh the options of having semipermanent options which would reduce sales due to a strong secondary market vs. torched earth design that would alienate people who won’t buy into a game that would have no value after playing.


I'm sure it was discussed. At Hasbro, I'm sure lots of things get discussed, when the print runs dwarf entire companies' output. But I don't think Legacy stuff is a deliberate scam as much as it is a marketing gimmick.

Case in point, the gimmicky bullshit of FFG's "unique box" adventure game. Everybody is trying to figure out how to keep "state" in board games, because it's one of the stickiest factors of a video game. Legacy scribbles and torn cards are another way to do that. Shit, "bring your collection" games like Magic, Warhammer, etc, have been separating "my game" from "your game" for as long as the industry has existed. That way, you sell two games.

The ten nerds reselling lightly used shit to each other on BGG are nothing compared to just shifting units in the first place.

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01 Nov 2018 16:04 - 01 Nov 2018 16:09 #285099 by Jexik

Josh Look wrote:

Jexik wrote: I disagree and really want to get a group for Betrayal.

Come on Pete. You know destroying things is fun.


Do you honestly expect Betrayal to work? The game without all the Legacy bits hardly works 50% of the time.


Exactly. You won't be able to tell the difference. But when a room dies in a fire you can light it up in real life. And I actually expect the game to be a little more tightly controlled than standard betrayal, at least at first. I expect good times from it, and I still haven't played the original 15 times. I think once this gets going, we would.

I also think Machi Koro should work fine too.

I've played through about 1.8 Risk Legacy's, 1 PL: season 1, and about half of Season 2. They're good, although I think co-ops work best. Since betrayal is about half co-op, I think it'll be great.
Last edit: 01 Nov 2018 16:09 by Jexik.
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01 Nov 2018 16:08 #285100 by Josh Look

Jexik wrote:

Josh Look wrote:

Jexik wrote: I disagree and really want to get a group for Betrayal.

Come on Pete. You know destroying things is fun.


Do you honestly expect Betrayal to work? The game without all the Legacy bits hardly works 50% of the time.


Exactly. You won't be able to tell the difference. But when a room dies in a fire you can light it up in real life. And I actually expect the game to be a little more tightly controlled than standard betrayal, at least at first. I expect good times from it, and I still haven't played the original 15 times. I think once this gets going, we would.


It’s $75 at MSRP. At that price, yeah, I’ll know the difference.
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01 Nov 2018 16:10 #285101 by Jexik
I'm someone who buys maybe 3-5 games per year. I don't mind spending 50% more on one if I think it'll get love.

Disclaimer: I've not bought this yet, but it's firmly in my radar.

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01 Nov 2018 17:10 #285103 by drewcula
Here's what I know:
Risk Legacy was one of the best gaming experiences in my life. The same four guys that started it with me, finished with me. We drank a lot of beers over ten months, spoke a lot of smack, and have dozens of great memories.
We bought Seafall hoping for a similar experience. NOPE. We couldn't find the groove after three sessions, and abandoned it.
I received Pandemic Legacy Season 1 as a gift. My wife and I played it. It was fun for a while, until it wasn't. We stopped at the end of October. We're not certain we'll finish it. We have zero interest in Season 2.
I received Gloomhaven as a gift. I bought a bunch of Plano boxes for storage and a sticker set. I played 10 adventures, and tucked it away for some life balance (I play it solo). I hope to get back to it, but it's a commitment.
I don't like Werewolf. At all. However, I think it may go over very well with the College Board Game Club.
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01 Nov 2018 17:44 #285105 by Jackwraith
Wait. There's a Werewolf: Legacy? Guess that'll turn into a "lifestyle game" where "lifestyle" = "prison." But, hey, go for it. It's all about the experience.

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01 Nov 2018 17:59 #285106 by Gary Sax
I think drewcula's post is really good. I read this from someone else on this site, so apologies, but it may just be that Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy season 1 are like the arete of this style. The reason a lot of the rest of them suck is that those early ones really did capture the best of the genre and are rare.

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01 Nov 2018 18:05 #285107 by Michael Barnes
This is a concept I am really interested in right now- foundational versus imitative design. I think Risk Legacy and Pandemic are the foundational designs, everything else is imitative. Foundational designs tend to be rare but evergreen, imitative designs are transient but common.
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01 Nov 2018 18:36 - 01 Nov 2018 18:38 #285110 by mtagge

Gary Sax wrote: I think drewcula's post is really good. I read this from someone else on this site, so apologies, but it may just be that Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy season 1 are like the arete of this style. The reason a lot of the rest of them suck is that those early ones really did capture the best of the genre and are rare.

It's hard to tease this out from "same four friends" and "drank a lot of beer". The medium isn't as important as the commitment. In other words they could have all gone in on Neverwinter, or any other free to play MMO, and had the same experience questing together.

Frankly if you have that group of friends that can commit like that, is committed to having fun, the activity really doesn't matter.

Although I'm guessing there is some truth to the argument that Risk Legacy is the pinnacle. Risk's gameplay straddles the line between beer and pretzels (you fate is a bit constrained by luck) and emotional attachment.
Last edit: 01 Nov 2018 18:38 by mtagge.
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01 Nov 2018 21:05 #285114 by drewcula

mtagge wrote:

Gary Sax wrote: I think drewcula's post is really good. I read this from someone else on this site, so apologies, but it may just be that Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy season 1 are like the arete of this style. The reason a lot of the rest of them suck is that those early ones really did capture the best of the genre and are rare.

It's hard to tease this out from "same four friends" and "drank a lot of beer". The medium isn't as important as the commitment. In other words they could have all gone in on Neverwinter, or any other free to play MMO, and had the same experience questing together.

Frankly if you have that group of friends that can commit like that, is committed to having fun, the activity really doesn't matter.

Although I'm guessing there is some truth to the argument that Risk Legacy is the pinnacle. Risk's gameplay straddles the line between beer and pretzels (you fate is a bit constrained by luck) and emotional attachment.


Fair point. I've been playing games with the same lot of friends for over fourteen years. Beer has always been part of the equation.
Re: Risk Legacy - it was a seminal bonding experience for us. We enjoyed our multi-player matches of Heroscape, Poker, Epic Duels, Arkham Horror, etc., but Risk had always been a constant for us. When Daviau released Risk "Revised," we really dug the objective based elements. It played a little faster than Risk 2210, which we also loved. If we couldn't get everybody to the table? Risk: Star Wars the Original Trilogy was our go-to for 3 player nights. When the news of Risk: Legacy dropped, all of us were excited. We understood exactly what it was; Risk Revised with Campaign elements. We were the perfect the market.

It didn't disappoint. Risk was a perfect chassis for Daviau to build upon. Enough experimentation had occurred already in re-skinning Risk into various IPs and adding layers of complexity. A campaign component could work, and Daviau nailed it in our opinion. Sure, it's a lot of dice rolling. But I'd argue Risk Legacy is also a lot of... wait for it... Risk management. Get bonuses here, lay waste there, make an alliance now, but get f*#$ed by them in three games when the tide turns. Win the naming rights for a continent and name it after your arch-enemy's mother. Damn. We're grown men.

Interestingly, I also eagerly picked up Daviau's refresh of Clue. It was not as good. I sold it.
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01 Nov 2018 21:16 - 01 Nov 2018 21:16 #285115 by san il defanso
When Josh Look runs for office on the "No Campaigns" campaign, he has my vote. It's important for the medium to try new things, but increasingly the drive toward sustained stories between sessions feels wrong-headed. Maybe it's time for thematic designers to think about the one-off nature of board games as a strength instead of a liability.

Legacy games as a concept are more palatable to me. That's maybe because Pandemic Legacy was fun. But when I purged a ton of games last year I found myself resentful that an $80 game would have the audacity to now be a paperweight.
Last edit: 01 Nov 2018 21:16 by san il defanso.
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01 Nov 2018 21:25 #285116 by SuperflyPete
To be fair, I absolutely adored Risk Legacy. LOVED.

Also, what is the refresh of Clue? I love Cluedo. I’d like to see it. Can you LMK por favor?
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