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Let's Talk- Blizzard

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18 Jul 2017 08:54 #251307 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
So, Matt is the guy that Jay Wilson, the original game director for Diablo 3, would have said is the target audience. Despite D2 having just been a more advanced and expanded version of the original Diablo and despite the fanbase wanting to continue to keep clicking on monsters, some people aren't interested in that (which is totally fine.) But D3 had other problems.

When they started the project around 2002, the idea was to make it an MMO. They were already hard at work on WoW and figured that MMOs were the next big trend in video games and that they'd just make one for each of their three franchises. They figured that WoW would be successful for three or four years and then would fade and they'd move on to the next version or to something else. After all, they knew that Sony was already working on Everquest 2 that they'd intended to replace EQ. But WoW became this monstrosity that wouldn't die and they realized that to do a Blizzard MMO, it would take a lot more resources than they had at hand and the Diablo fanbase was different from Warcraft's. So they switched gears and decided to go back to the ARPG approach that the original Diablo had virtually created. The problem was that too much of the trappings of an MMO were left in the design and the team had approached the project with the idea that they were getting away from anything that D2 had represented, which is precisely not what the majority of the fanbase wanted.

The most obvious problem was the auction house, largely because it eliminated the need to play the game. They wanted a viable economy on the AH, so they restricted drops out in the world. Even so, with the initial number of players in the game (10 million in sales), it was still far easier to find the gear you wanted on the AH, rather than try the slot machine elsewhere in the game. (This is the flaw in the model that Matt doesn't really enjoy.) You could even buy gear specifically statted to the style you wanted to play. Because of the drop restrictions, you would never be able to find a complete set by regular play. So, in the end, the only way to achieve genuine high level play was via the AH... which meant that there was no point to actually playing the game. After all, once you buy everything you need and run around for a couple hours maxed out, where's the thrill?

But the worst part was that members of the community had warned about exactly this problem during the years leading to release. Wilson later admitted that many more players used the AH than they anticipated (he said they thought only 10% of the player base would use it, despite a far higher percentage using the AH in the game it was based on: WoW.) But that was just part of the design team's willful blindness. People said the artwork was too bright for the dark world of Sanctuary. Wilson said we were wrong. Reaper of Souls? "Dark, gothic artwork." People said they wanted to be able to assign stats to play differently. Wilson said that didn't add gameplay. Reaper of Souls? Assignable secondary stat points. People said they loved the idea of the Mystic to be able to adjust their gear. Wilson said she didn't add enough to be included. RoS? Mystic. He supported all of his opinions by saying that people had rosy memories of playing D2 and remembered it being more fun than it was. This was during a period of time when hundreds of thousands of people were still playing D2 every day. In fact, when BNet used to report the numbers of people playing their games on the loading screen, you could see that more people were playing D2 than were playing D3 three months after the latter's release.

The design team deliberately ignored the desires of a huge fanbase. They had no plan for extended play (Wilson said that Baal loot runs were boring. RoS? Rifts and Bounties.) Half the skills were unworkable, regardless of difficulty level (the Witch Doctor was particularly poor, since the dogs and Garg were literally useless at higher levels.) And this game had the longest development cycle in the history of the company. Anyone who's followed Blizzard for any length of time knows how big a statement that is (i.e. Soon™.)

In short, Diablo 3 was kind of a debacle when it was released. They spent the next year trying to patch it into something decent and then released RoS to put in almost everything that the community had been asking for, three years earlier. Now it's a solid game. But that was the first real misstep of Blizzard's production history. There were pretty serious doubts about the viability of the franchise because D3 lacked the primary thing that we've been talking about in this thread: longevity. When people prefer the original to the new one, you have an EQ situation that eventually kills both. They veered away from the original model because they wanted to be different and there was a period of time that this was evident in the other franchises, too. WoW went through a serious dip during Cataclysm and lasting into Mists. SC2 had a host of problems (again, preference for the original was substantial.) Most of it was tied to the studio's approach in which the fanbase was often seen as adversarial to the visionary design of the developers. But some of it was also tied to the fact that different kinds of games need different kinds of attention and even "the Blizzard way" isn't a panacea. Taking a lot of extra special care on stories and worldbuilding is great. But if the game has mechanical issues, they need to be addressed, like yesterday. Heroes of the Storm is the best example of this. They wanted to get a competitive pro scene going but realized that they couldn't use the Blizzard approach of slow updates refined to the smallest detail, because competitive play isn't possible with serious balance flaws and they were already walking uphill competing with the pro scenes of DotA2 and LoL (both games based on a mod of Warcraft III, of course...) They needed fixes and quickly. Heroes is updated with balance tweaks about every 3-4 weeks now, if not more often.

Diablo is a similar case. A different approach was necessary and they eventually sorted it out. But I'd say it was probably the closest Blizzard has come to seeing one of their three pillars bottom out. Now they have four, plus Heroes and Hearthstone, so they have been moving in different directions, but Diablo has become the least of the franchises and it'll be interested to see where they take it to bring it back to the level it enjoyed before.
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18 Jul 2017 10:30 - 18 Jul 2017 10:31 #251317 by Matt Thrower
Replied by Matt Thrower on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard

Jackwraith wrote: (This is the flaw in the model that Matt doesn't really enjoy.)


That was a fascinating analysis, thanks!

I have to say, though, that the bigger flaw for me was the lack of skill in much of the gameplay. There's plenty of challenge in all the Diablo games, but whether you overcome it or not is largely down to whether your abilities and equipment have the right properties for the task at hand. Getting the right combinations is where the skill is. Using them in anger is pretty much just about how fast you can hammer that mouse button. The loot slot machine keeps you invested for a good long time - it kept me going through two whole games and their expansions - but there comes a time when it wears thin.

It may be the game is different, more skillful, when it comes to multiplayer. I wouldn't know, as I mostly played solo.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2017 10:31 by Matt Thrower.
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18 Jul 2017 10:35 - 18 Jul 2017 10:35 #251319 by iguanaDitty
Replied by iguanaDitty on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
Nice writeup Jackwraith.

Where you glossed over a bit is the steps Blizzard took to fix D3 which I think are also instructive. Namely:
1) They didn't flush it all down the toilet like EA just did with Mass Effect: Andromeda.
2) They fired Jay Wilson and brought in someone else to lead the project more in a direction of D2. In other words, after it clearly was failing they were not afraid to scrap a major pillar of the design (the Auction House) and iteratively move things in a different direction.
3) They kept the other major pillar of the design, the ability to easily switch skills on the same character, as opposed to D2 where you were locked in for the life of that character. They addressed longevity concerns ("why would I ever play the same character twice?") with a clever season concept, where each season highlights different playstyles for each character and adds new loot.

In other words, they identified the failure and what could be removed and what had to be kept and did so, while addressing the weaknesses of what they were keeping. Sure, it took a lot longer than hoped but they put a lot more into it than many companies would have and now they have a successful game by their standards.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2017 10:35 by iguanaDitty.
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18 Jul 2017 11:04 #251322 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard

MattDP wrote: I have to say, though, that the bigger flaw for me was the lack of skill in much of the gameplay. There's plenty of challenge in all the Diablo games, but whether you overcome it or not is largely down to whether your abilities and equipment have the right properties for the task at hand.


I think there's some validity to that, but the real skill test in D3 these days is whether you can recognize dangerous situations and avoid them to keep playing at the highest level. The Greater Rifts are instructive in this case. The damage that mobs can deal out can often one-shot you, so you have to find a mix of defensive and offensive skills that keep you alive just long enough to kill everything on the screen. Oh, and do so in a coordinated fashion that keeps you moving and ahead of the timer ticking down that determines whether or not you can "beat" the Rift. There's a pretty significant amount of skill involved in that.

@IguanaDitty: Fair points. I didn't try to gloss over their attempts to fix it. They did try and I think they've largely succeeded. I've spent significant time playing my new Necromancer in the past couple weeks, for example. They didn't actually fire Wilson, since he moved off D3 and onto Titan until that was canceled and then moved somewhere in the company until he decided to retire from game design overall a few months back. I think both he and they recognized that the fanbase would never really trust the changes while he was the director so it was a good move for all concerned, but it's not like they kicked him to the curb, either. I think there was a pretty significant shakeup within the company as a whole, despite most of the original founders (Adham, et al) still being in charge and that's what I was referencing when I mentioned the other games kind of changing their tunes around the same time (Legion is the most successful expansion for WoW going back to Wrath, for example.) OTOH, I've always been underwhelmed by the season concept. I tried a couple times and stopped. There's nothing in that concept that can't be addressed by simply doing different builds and running Rifts. In the course of the last two weeks, I've assembled all 4 sets for the Necro, for example, and I haven't been that dedicated. Now it's just a matter of testing builds and seeing how high I can go, which is similar to my other six toons.

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18 Jul 2017 11:28 #251326 by Colorcrayons
Replied by Colorcrayons on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
Blizzard has a lot of grace granted by their consumers. This thread is just a reflection of that.

But in order for Diablo to ever be as popular as it once was, it needs an entirely new iteration, and more importantly, name.

They went through a lot to make D3 a better game and I feel they have achieved it, but there hasn't been much chatter about it. I feel that's because most wrote it off during its early days and went back to D2. For example, I eagerly awaited D3 and was going to buy a new comp just to play it at the time. But reviews came back that it was bad. Really bad. I wrote it off and walked away after trying it and agreeing. Fast forward to merely three months ago, and only tried it because I had forgotten about its flaws from half a decade ago. Found it played really well on PS3 & 4. Got hooked again, but only by random chance and not through anything blizzard did to advertise the improvements.

So it needs: "Diablo IV" or something else on the cover to get everyone who wrote it off originally back into the sales room. Because Diablo 3 has been written off and for most it's just a long decade between D2 and D4 being released.

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18 Jul 2017 11:52 #251329 by Colorcrayons
Replied by Colorcrayons on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard

Sevej wrote: What didn't you like about Diablo 3?

I don't think I've ever thought any of the Diablos had a good story. They're mundane, but well-presented.


This is hard for me to put my finger on, let alone communicate it.

But I think the original and the sequel had a lot of implied plot points that weren't explained to death (Ermagherd, who IS this 'Butcher'?!? *gasp* ) Like many good stories, it allowed me to fill in the gaps with my own imagination. It had an allure somewhat similar to the original Silent Hill. You knew 'once you went underground, things just get a heck of a lot scarier' kind of vibe. D3 feels a lot different in this respect. Not only is there far more exposition, but when it is revealed, it's pretty bland and would have been better off just redoing D2 but with far better graphics and system upgrades for the design. I mean, you don't even get to hear Deckard Cain say "Stay awhile, and listen.", but they sure as hell will throw that quote on the loading screen.

They knew what made it good, and ignored it because they had a new vision. And like Jackwraith noted above, roundly ignored their consumer base and tried to tell us what we wanted. Massive fucking fail.

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18 Jul 2017 12:06 #251330 by Legomancer
Replied by Legomancer on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
I liked Diablo
I loved Diablo 2
I like Diablo 3
I appreciate Hearthstone but lose interest in it when it comes to building decks

I never could play the *Craft games

that is all

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18 Jul 2017 12:12 - 18 Jul 2017 12:13 #251332 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
I've never played a Diablo game. I was playing the mess out of Balder's Gate around this time. They looked similar. Am I wrong?

EDIT: In fact, I think the only Blizzard game i ever played was that Viking puzzle game on the SNES.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2017 12:13 by Mr. White.

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18 Jul 2017 12:50 #251333 by Colorcrayons
Replied by Colorcrayons on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard

Mr. White wrote: I've never played a Diablo game. I was playing the mess out of Balder's Gate around this time. They looked similar. Am I wrong?

EDIT: In fact, I think the only Blizzard game i ever played was that Viking puzzle game on the SNES.


Baldurs Gate >>>>> Diablo.

Diablo is just point and click hack and slash. Baldurs gate is kinda too, but you have the D&D system behind it. And more plot.
But the d&d games boil down to delivery games, where diablo just unleashes you to fuck shit up.
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18 Jul 2017 12:57 - 18 Jul 2017 12:58 #251334 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
I don't think Diablo 3 was really good until the PS4 version hit. That sort of changed the game. It also added that evade thing, which was not on the PC version, and it actually made the game more interesting. By that point, the stupid RMAH was gone too.

I find that the "skill" in Diablo 3 is mostly tuned to figuring out the tempo of encounters and keeping it under control. I really like how you'll go start hitting something and within three minutes, the entire screen is filled with bad guys and you are totally swamped. If you are not careful, and if you don't isolate the high-threat targets that are really causing you grief. I think there is definitely some skill play there.

I didn't realize there was a story in Diablo 3. There were these parts where characters would be talking, but I got annoyed and just skipped it all. Was that a story I missed?

Diablo's core design is NONSENSE. I remember when I bought the first game, at first I was like "shit, I just paid $50 for a game where you click on monsters until they dispense treasure". Then after like 100 hours of it, I was still playing it. Strip away all of the setting, music, graphics, etc. and it is essentially a Pavlovian game about pressing a button and getting a reward. But it works, and it's FUN. It's like Robotron 2084 with stuff.

I used to make fun of a friend of mine...I'd get a new PC game and tell him about it and he'd be like "well, I'm still playing Diablo 2". This went on until, like, 2010.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2017 12:58 by Michael Barnes.
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18 Jul 2017 12:58 #251335 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
total derail, but but I recall the Baldur's Gate/Icewind games allowing you to upload your own audio files for the character's voices. I had a lot of fun using sound bites from the old GI Joe cartoon for the characters. One of my favorites was Zartan for the thief:

"A gem of that size....answers all my questions..."
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18 Jul 2017 15:17 - 18 Jul 2017 15:19 #251340 by Jexik
Replied by Jexik on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard

iguanaDitty wrote: Where you glossed over a bit is the steps Blizzard took to fix D3 which I think are also instructive. Namely:3) They kept the other major pillar of the design, the ability to easily switch skills on the same character, as opposed to D2 where you were locked in for the life of that character. They addressed longevity concerns ("why would I ever play the same character twice?") with a clever season concept, where each season highlights different playstyles for each character and adds new loot.


Making a brand new character and thinking about how I wanted to build out his skill tree, or creating a really focused one, was something that I really missed about Diablo II's transition to III. My first Amazon that I created completely ignored the spear tree, and she survived nearly every patch. She had absolute crap for armor, extremely high move speed and mana steal, and I loaded her up with Frost and Immolation arrow skills so she could kite stuff all day. It didn't seem like you could do anywhere near that kind of specialization and customization in III. It also seemed like more of the encounters were tuned to the point that you'd HAVE to change you skills frequently or really suffer. Or I was just terrible with my Demon Hunter. It was just, "this item increases my DPS by 5%, I guess I'll use it." Yawn. I haven't played it since the revamp or on a console, so maybe I could get sucked in again. Does it have couch co-op?
Last edit: 18 Jul 2017 15:19 by Jexik.

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18 Jul 2017 16:50 - 18 Jul 2017 16:58 #251342 by boothwah
Replied by boothwah on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard

Jexik wrote: . I haven't played it since the revamp or on a console, so maybe I could get sucked in again. Does it have couch co-op?


Yep. The reason why it was the second download for my xbox one after paying for it on my 360. Couch co-ops are a dieing breed man.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2017 16:58 by boothwah.
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18 Jul 2017 16:59 #251344 by Colorcrayons
Replied by Colorcrayons on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
Its a pretty decent couch coop too, if people can deal with their inventory management at the end of an encounter or whatever. Otherwise it feels like a game of Suzy dress up dolls.
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18 Jul 2017 17:35 #251347 by Black Barney
Replied by Black Barney on topic Let's Talk- Blizzard
Sign me up!

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