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Boardgames are the new Comic Books

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06 Mar 2018 08:58 - 06 Mar 2018 09:01 #264634 by charlest
Part of the problem I face with the large Kickstarters is that it's a no lose proposition. I don't approach a game thinking "Why shouldn't I get this?" as Dave talks about, but when it's something like Batman, I can't help but feel that I need to back it simply because I will either A) enjoy the heck out of it (I love Conan) or B) sell it for a large profit.

I just sold Zombicide Green Horde and made $100. Didn't even open it. I backed it thinking there was a 75% chance I was going to resell it.

The Rising Sun clan expansion that is going to be available retail, but at that point won't have plastic strongholds and ying-yang tokens (10 total small plastic pieces), is going for $140 on Ebay right now. If you take out the retail price of the expansion, that's $10 for each little plastic stronghold. I didn't grab this add-on thinking I was going to resell it, but I sure as hell am now and my pledge was basically free due to one add-on.

At that point, I don't feel like I have any risk, but I have huge upside. Economically, I feel like if I'm even vaguely interested in the game, I may as well take a shot. This has tangible results that actually help me make money off this hobby as opposed to lose money.

Now, not every Kickstarter is guaranteed to increase in value upon delivery. But with some savvy and some basic analysis, it's pretty easy to determine which are greater risks.
Last edit: 06 Mar 2018 09:01 by charlest.

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06 Mar 2018 09:04 #264636 by Michael Barnes
I’ve thought about that too, and I’ve sold a couple of pledges for $100+ profit...before the games even released, which is quite frankly insane. I can’t lie, part of me wants to exploit that...but the reality of it is that even at making a $100 profit, it’s not worth the investment of $150 or whatever and then a 9-12 month wait to get my money back. But hey, if it works for you...work it!

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06 Mar 2018 09:07 #264638 by dysjunct
I’m wondering if there’s some way to tie a new cryptocurrency to Kickstarter board game futures, in order to take advantage of two classes of morons.

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06 Mar 2018 09:10 - 06 Mar 2018 09:11 #264640 by jpat
I do think the KS campaign itself is the "end" for some people, and on occasion has been one for me too. A well-run one can foster a partially real, partially imagined sense of community and a faux sense of co-ownership over and responsibility for the project. I was skimming one random-ish thread on BGG where someone was supporting the idea that the second edition of Eclipse is better for coming out via KS because the publishers will be able to make it better than might otherwise have been; in response, someone pointed out that the KS was simply enabling the publishers to make the game exactly like they'd planned from the start.
Last edit: 06 Mar 2018 09:11 by jpat.

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06 Mar 2018 09:14 #264642 by Sagrilarus
At some point the music stops, and someone is going to be left without a seat. Free rides can't continue indefinitely. If you want to work that go for it, but considering some of these critters take a year to deliver you need to consider how much money you have at risk at any one time.

The beauty of kickstarter is that there is no risk to the publisher in a speculative market. People buying as an investment fuels the industry. If the investment tanks, well, publisher is already paid. Deliver the goods. If the bubble bursts, you don't make your numbers and you don't need to produce the product. Downside risk is all pushed to the end-user, assuming you can manage the print and delivery processes.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to buy more bitcoin, which a friend has assured me will go for $50,000 apiece in a few weeks' time.
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06 Mar 2018 09:29 #264645 by Michael Barnes
Sag have you considered investing in magic beans? It’s a good time to get in on it before peak oil hits. I can send you a brochure that includes an order form.

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06 Mar 2018 09:43 - 06 Mar 2018 09:44 #264649 by Mr. White
Good points about Tribalism, Michael. Easy to kick at gamers about it though since that's essentially what this site is about, but it's an issue across society as a whole these days.

Maybe it always has been though? Part of our default nature?
Last edit: 06 Mar 2018 09:44 by Mr. White.

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06 Mar 2018 09:52 #264652 by SuperflyPete
The underlying problem is that (here he goes again) the ever growing, sycophantic press legion that reviews and previews games is pushing everything like it’s the NEXT THING. Half of that is graft and half is ignorance, in my estimation.

I’ve been noticing a lot of new names/sites/podcasts and lots of them are guys who just started playing games. They have no reference points with which to critically analyze new games. They talk about how awesome a game is not even realizing that there’s an old game that does the same thing but better.

It’s a machine.
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06 Mar 2018 10:03 #264653 by Msample

Nagajur wrote: I would specifically be interested in how the used game market fares in this more ephemeral climate (if it is true and not anecdotal). The high value of used games historically has been used to justify lavish spending where the entire purchase is not seen as an expense -- only the depreciation.

In addition, due to the limited print availability at any one time, it is possible that those with "complete collections" are meant to sit on the sidelines while the newbies go through the initial collection build up with all these new games available in the current market state. I still think there are too many, but it's an obvious response to massive increase in hobby spending.

At one point I went back and complied a list of some of the FATiest recommendations and found that many were out of print. From a publishers perspective, I wonder how much more money is in printing new hotness vs. a reprint of a solid 7.5 game simply due to hype.


My perspective is more from the wargame side of the hobby , based on both what I see while working the WBC auction the last decade as well as observing various online marketplaces. WBC sees a mix of both Euros and wargames for sale. It does tend to be older stuff , although we do see new shrink wrap stuff as well.

- while there are a few hens teeth that are worth decent cash, as a whole used game prices have been tumbling for awhile. This is due to a combination of a somewhat aging consumer base who has either finally acquired all the old stuff they were looking for, or has come to the realization that they just have too much shit. Some of these guys have been hoarding shit for 30, 40 years or more. Sadly, we do get large lots of games from estates/friends of deceased gamers - and a lot of it is just...shit. Stuff that is work a couple or bucks in a lot of cases. SPI flatpacks, old magazine games.

- the internet has also removed a lot of the mystique of games; some older games that were highly sought after are now known to be utter shite. WAR OF THE RING, the old SPI game on the subject comes to mind. Not only shite game play, but the new game from ARES/NEXUS blows it out of the water. CSW Expo in the early days had people set up older monster games and once actually played, were discovered to have flaws.

- the rampant consumerism seen on BGG has really accelerated in the last decade or so IMO. Somewhere down the line a lot of these people will have to deal with the logistics of moving/liquidating their Smaug like horde and be sorely disappointed. I know some gamer friends who are already realizing that with retirement looming and the coming downsizing of their house as they move, they are in trouble.

- a lot of prized older games have either been reprinted, or replaced by newer games on the same subject matter. For instance HIGHWAY TO THE REICH used to fetch a pretty good sum, but then along came DEVILS CAULDRON which scratches the same itch, looks a helluva lot nicer, and has a pretty good rep from people who have played it. This has also been happening to Euros as well.

Its not to say there aren't valuable games out there. Not by a long shot. But I feel there is a growing gulf between high value games and....the glut of shit that isn't worth the free Priority mail box you need to ship the fucking thing. Not to mention a lot of stuff is in oversize boxes making shipping even more painful, both logistics and cost wise. The percentage of high value games is constantly dropping/being diluted by all the stuff being pumped out. Shipping costs have made disposing of low value stuff even more problematic.

I have no doubt that like a stock picker, one can SELECTIVELY flip stuff and make money. Sure, you can flip BATMAN in a year and make money. But how long will that price hold ? I bet it will fade over time, and a lot faster than old wargame prices dropped.

But people liquidating whole collections or substantial portions...they're losing money, contrary to what they might think otherwise. I have been consolidating the last decade or so, from a high of 350 or so down to around half of that. I harbor no illusions and look at any money I get as akin to finding cash in a seat cushion to to speak.
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06 Mar 2018 10:07 - 06 Mar 2018 10:07 #264654 by Michael Barnes
Yeah Pete, that is a generational issue, really. We are looking at folks now that came into games AFTER the FFG “golden years”, and their frame of reference is very limited.

Worse, the new generation of games writers and broadcasters seem to think that playing hype-men for Kickstarter campaigns is somehow legitimate games journalism.

I miss the days when a Chris Farrell review made you notice a game, not some tweet from one of these board game hucksters grinning about playing some Kickstarter game that is still 6 months from release.
Last edit: 06 Mar 2018 10:07 by Michael Barnes.
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06 Mar 2018 10:14 #264657 by Michael Barnes
On the subject of used games...used game values have PLUMMETED in general. Largely because so much money is going to Kickstarter, because so much is on the market to spend money on, and also because- here it is again- this generation of gamers is not looking for older titles.

This is part of the reason why I sell even the best new games quickly. I loved Fallout, but I also knew that if I didn’t part with it quickly I’d have a practically unseeable game in just a few months. It’s not that you can’t find a buyer for used games, it’s just gotten a lot harder. And the shipping costs these days don’t help.

So the irony is that you can’t sell an OOP, once very popular game like Alhambra or Attika for 20% of its original price...time-tested, evergreen designs with literally thousands of impressions, reviews and comments out there...but you can sell the shit out of a $320 Batman game from a publisher with a shaky reputation sight unseen.
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06 Mar 2018 10:18 #264658 by SuperflyPete
I’d like to see more Restoration Games type companies going back and remastering older games. There are so many games out there that were on the cusp of greatness and if a legit designer came in a pared down or modified the mechanics, they’d be there.

So many games could be reinvigorated.
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06 Mar 2018 10:21 - 06 Mar 2018 10:41 #264660 by Sagrilarus

Michael Barnes wrote: Sag have you considered investing in magic beans? It’s a good time to get in on it before peak oil hits. I can send you a brochure that includes an order form.


Nice try. The beans thing didn't pan out.

I've tuned in to a new podcast where the two guys have about four years of gaming experience between them. Bully for them for giving it a go, but you can hear the gaps in their knowledge, and frankly I don't consider myself a wizened master on the subject myself. I think the focus on "component quality" ( I spit as I say the words) has really taken the industry for a ride. Kickstarter's ability to present an ultra-high-quality sales message for products has made for a fundamental change on what people think should be in the box.

Pete, I can't knock these guys for doing a podcast, and I don't think they're the heart of the problem. I think the bigger problem lies in the bubble nature of current "big" development efforts, kickstarter and otherwise, that captivate much of the word on the street. In theory this will pop, in spite of the deluxe flim-flam efforts online, but in the meantime the answer is simple -- buy games that appeal to you that are in your price range. Buy wisely for you, and ignore the rest of the market. With luck other members of your gaming group will do the same.

P.S. Played my homemade copy of Table Battles from WargameVault last night, and I have another new fan again. $12, print your own cards, play. I'm batting 1.000 with it so far and it has no hype or online presence whatsoever. Great buy. The games are out there if you take some time to look.
Last edit: 06 Mar 2018 10:41 by Sagrilarus.

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06 Mar 2018 11:19 #264669 by Legomancer
one of the only things I've ever said that truly bears repeating is that for most nerds these days, it's not that you're a fan of something. You're a fan of being a fan of something. The fandom itself is the goal, not a byproduct of liking the original thing.
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06 Mar 2018 11:23 #264670 by Shellhead

Legomancer wrote: one of the only things I've ever said that truly bears repeating is that for most nerds these days, it's not that you're a fan of something. You're a fan of being a fan of something. The fandom itself is the goal, not a byproduct of liking the original thing.


This was noticed by science-fiction fans back in the '40s, and was called FIAWOL. Fandom is a Way of Life.
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