X-Wing 2.0!

Had a chance to read and process this now. Some random thoughts .

1) almost all of the issues this purports to solve were caused by expansion bloat in the first place. Rebels & imperials did feel distinct at first but at 14 waves of expansions, everything looks like everything else. So: this is charging gamers to solve a problem created by the publisher.

2) almost all list based miniature games do this. GW have been doing it for years. It's not just about flogging product - though it is largely - but about keeping things fresh. At least we can still use the old figures. But I moved from miniatures to board games to get away from exactly this sort of crap. It makes me nervous for Legion, which I had been enjoying .

3) my biggest issues with X-wing is that it's become a game of upgrades not of actual flying. You can win the game before you roll a dice, just by picking the right stuff. All the blurb about the list building app doesn't actually make that not true any more, not does it stop it happening again. I guess you could agree with your opponent only to use the quick builds as a possible fix.

4) not sure what to do. I guess we need to wait for more detail. If I bail, I'm quite tempted to keep all my original trilogy ships and take it back to basics, flying 1st edition rules with a limited pool of upgrades, making pew pew noises and chucking dice around.

As someone who never plays in tournaments (or even with anyone else's set), this decision doesn't affect me in the least. I'll still be able to play and have fun with my (relatively) modest collection.

But as an observer in the game community, this does seem like a pretty shitty thing to do. I guess their tournament players were no longer spending money in the necessary amounts? Why else would you risk alienating your fan base with this? I look forward to hearing if these changes do genuinely improve play, independent of the cost analysis.

that's the weird part. it is more popular and bringing in more new players than ever. A pure cash perspective would be to leave the game as-is until growth projected to slow...which would probably be after episode 9 at least

Well, an almost six-years-run is pretty good for a miniatures game! Also, probably, not affecting non-tourney players. You guys probably have enough ships as it is. Still, definitely, a special rules galore!

At this point I feel the Star Wars line is destroying Fantasy Flight from the inside. It's a cash cow without equal and just when you think they have done all the scopes and types of games possible with license, they bring it back around with 2nd editions.... The conversion kits seem pricey without any miniatures, I have no clue how much cardboard that box will contain though to justify its pricetag.

This is probably my biggest concern. It's hard to get excited about FFG anymore.

FFG still does good stuff- it’s just all bound up in product lines and licenses. Arkham Horror LCG is brilliant, the best adventure card game on the market. Destiny is the best dice game I’ve ever played short of Can’t Stop. X-Wing is still a great game, Armada is even better. Fallout was a big surprise. They know what butters their bread.

That said, I’m about as excited by the next FFG announcement as I am by the next Steve Jackson Games announcement.

I don't see this as a huge deal? The only issue is how generous or annoying the upgrade kit buys will be. I can see the annoyance of having to buy a whole bunch of kits.

I was under the impression pretty much every minis game ground out new editions constantly...?

There's quite a difference, with X-Wing utilizing upgrade cards and cardboard components.

In 40k for example, you practically only need the minis, the book and whatever you have (dice, terrain, etc). So when a new edition comes, in an ideal condition, you only need to buy the book. Here you have to update the cardboard components & cards. The latest 40k update was very consumer friendly, with the core rules free, and $25 book updating several armies at once.

Generally it takes 3-6 years for an update.

Sevej wrote: In 40k for example, you practically only need the minis, the book and whatever you have (dice, terrain, etc). So when a new edition comes, in an ideal condition, you only need to buy the book. Here you have to update the cardboard components & cards. The latest 40k update was very consumer friendly, with the core rules free, and $25 book updating several armies at once.

Generally it takes 3-6 years for an update.

As someone who followed the GW train for years, this hasn't really been true in practice. When a new edition came out, it would come with a bunch of free army lists that let you use your existing figures with the new rules. When each faction got its own book, however, things were often jigged to make it difficult to continue using your older models. Equipment options would change, popular units would become obsolete and powerful new ones would be added.

So while you could often scrape an army together from your existing collection, it was hard and the result would tend to be sub-optimal under the new rules. In all the years I played, I don't think I ever saw a player who didn't end up changing the bulk of their figures eventually after a new edition.

I don't play AoS or 40k anymore so I can't talk about the current edition. But saying the latest update for 40k was "consumer friendly" doesn't deviate from this model. It's only friendly up until the bit where they change the rules to pressure a hard sell on new figures. Maybe it will be different this time, but I wouldn't bet on it.

X-Wing originally came out in 2012 so, there you go - a six-year gap.

One thing that does feel off about this "upgrade" though is the new bases and dials. While the whole upgrade and pilot tree is begging for a reset, I don't see anything, yet, that explains why the game needs new bases and dials. So it may well be that this move is purely intended to force existing players to pony up for an upgrade kit.

It's worth elaborating that the upgrade thing is what ruined the game for me. There we so many options, I just gave up trying to follow them all and picked what sounded fun or thematic. I was never a tournament player, and never wanted to be, but some of the people I played against were. When I'd show up with these soft lists, I'd be destroyed. I seriously think it's been literally years since I won an X-Wing game.

It has become a game for die-hards only. Armada, I fear, is going the same way. It may be that Legion stumbles down the same rocky road.

There isn't a lot in this update - again, so far - that seems to address this problem. Over on the Facebook page for F:AT Malloc made the great point that the new app for squad building lets FFG tweak points costs to balance out overpowered combos, which I guess would be a start. I'm still thinking that, personally, I prefer the idea of "pre build only" games where you use the suggested combos from the box. That could be a real fix, if other players are happy to agree with it.

A lot of this hinges on how much these upgrade kits cost. I wonder if there might actually be an aftermarket in them. Like, I own 3 X-Wings and precisely zero Auzituck Gunships, whatever the hell they are. So I'd be up for selling those Gunship dials and bases (and a bunch of others I don't need - I only have 1 of most ships) and buying them for one X-Wing. If that works out, upgrading might be cheaper than it looks for a lot of players.

Then again, I only have 1 of most ships. I guess that means I'm still going to be stomped over by serious players. And there's a line in the spiel about cards from the "aces" kits returning in the future that makes me think this is just a re-set of the same old pyramid scheme. So, I don't know. I guess I'll hold on to the models - they're very pretty, after all - and see what unfolds but my hopes aren't that high.

I've been playing x-wing since it first came out. Mostly casual, but with the occasional tournament, even went to Worlds once (and got destroyed). I own a ton of ships. I am on the fence on this.

I really like the change in actions, it looks like most ships will have multiple actions, some of which are red (give the ship stress)- like the TIE bomber can do a white barrel roll, can do a white focus OR can do a white focus followed by a red barrel roll. So they have some built in Push the Limit sort of actions.
I like that some ships are getting new dials, to add maneuvers added in later waves.
I like that upgrades (like R2D2 and missiles) will have a set amount of charges. Like R2 can only be used 3 times. Missiles will have 2 shots.
I really like the turret fix. Players will have to set which why turrets are pointing, where ships with primary turrets get 180 degree arch and ships with secondary turrets (like the Y-wing) get a 90. This will encourage arch-dodging and good pilots again.
I think its clever that they are going to an all app build (rather than points on cards) so they can alter things on the fly, but I am not sure I like it.

I do not like:

• the conversion kits costing $50 and needing two of them to be able to fly 4 of each type of ships
[l] I really don't like having to buy another core set - I do not need more X-wings or TIE fighters. So the conversion kits should come with the new damage decks / maneuver templates (if they've changed). I am glad the conversion kits are available, because if they did not I would just stick with first edition and play with my kids[/li]

.

Also epic has not been addressed yet, other than saying it will still be supported so I assume an epic upgrade kit is coming.
Also interesting is the change in pilot skills- looks like Old Wedge is a 6 now. I wonder if lots of pilots are downgraded. Leave Vader and Han at 9?

My big hope is that this will draw in some new players, as the scene where I live has really died in the last few years.

absolutely going to be a secondary market......big question is upgrade cards. Personally, each conversion kit would set me up pretty nice, with only 1 or two ships feeling left out. Already talking to players in my area though, about trading stuff (I've got 4 Tie bombers ...why? I don't remember...but tentatively talking about giving that model to a player for one of his B-wing dials/cardboard). again depending on what exactly comes in the pack with cards.

Dials - old ships are missing maneuvers that new ships have. this brings them all up to current. new bases allow for some of the actions to be used in other places (reinforce), also allows for control of barrel roll action and limit its power. allows for ships like the y-wing to have rotating arcs, for their add-on turrets. Medium bases are a nice thing. the recent picture of a u-wing and Reaper firing at each other showed how silly some of the size/base combinations have become.

I'm tentatively positive on this. Hell of a lot happier than the announcement of a 3rd Falcon from the Solo movie that people were expecting. Saw's Renegades was a $40 'fix' to make X-wings comparable to current ships. so now you'd play 4 cards alongside an X-wing to make it playable. this eliminates this and combines all those fixes into one set, hopefully. hopefully they hold to the "buy one faction and get all you need". hopefully they avoid fix packs. hopefully they do some more playtesting before releasing ships. It absolutely makes it easier for new players to get in.

Looking at some of the pictures and it looks like the TIE fighter dial remains the same, so in theory players can use old dials there.

Also I am confused on why the imperials would get 3 dials for a decimator in the conversion kit and only 2 for a TIE advance. weird.

One other thing I was thinking about, is the secondary market for ships. At first I was thinking there would be a lot of people off loading the 1st edition stuff, but the more I think about it the ships may increase in value with the availability of conversion kits, but not the models.

For example, a new X-wing player buys the 2.0 core set and a rebel conversion kit, but there re no A-wings, B-wings, E-wings, Q-wings, whatever released for 2.0 yet. All of a sudden your dusty 1st edition E-wing might be worth some money.

I was never quite sure why the fun part of X-Wing- flying around and blowing up iconic spaceships- was shunted to the side in favor of the dreadful parts. Pawing through piles and piles of upgrade cards to find maximum efficiencies, spamming the “best” ships, competitive builds...yuck. I feel the same way about Warhammer, but the weird thing is that Warhammer is more accessible and casual friendly than X-Wing is at this point.

The bloat is real. When you are buying a $50 ship to get an upgrade card for another ship...when there are all these different types of torpedoes and Astromechs and copilots and minuscule attachments...the scope of the game and it’s accessibility shift dramatically if you are not into the “meta” and constantly reviewing winning builds as each new product is released. It’s overwhelming at this point.

I played a game about a year or so ago at a shop with just some random ships against some more serious players. It was horrible. All these terms and conditions that I didn’t even know existed with my “OT waves only” stuff. It wasn’t fun. It was looking over tableaux and making sure not to forget to do something, and then being instructed by my opponent and observers about how I wasn’t doing things the done way.

I had a hell of a lot more fun playing with my son, using NO cards

I am very interested, actually, in the quick build cards. I can see a scenario where I get ahold of those, scale my collection down to fit one upgrade pack for each side, and sell off everything that would require any kind of additions purchases. If the quick build cards make the game more fun and easier to play casually with just enough upgrades to give a little detail, then it could bring the game back for me.

The funny thing about edition changes and revisions in games like Warhammer in particular is that it is actually the power gamers that get financially bludgeoned. The big 40k FAQ just hit, and I ain’t cryin’. But the people that are running lists with like 8 Flyrants and a motorpool of Plagueburst Crawlers are. Because they now have to cap their maximum number of units. With X-Wing, it’s going to be the power list builders that get punished...but they are also the ones least likely to abandon the game.

edulis wrote: Looking at some of the pictures and it looks like the TIE fighter dial remains the same, so in theory players can use old dials there.

Also I am confused on why the imperials would get 3 dials for a decimator in the conversion kit and only 2 for a TIE advance. weird.

3 Deci dials is dumb. so dumb it could easily be a typo. not like there have been mistakes in FFG articles before.

and yeah, that would be great for TIE fighters if the old dial and cardboard would still work. not for "OFFICIAL TOURNAMENTS" but as long as it plays well with the rest of the game, that helps a lot of people out.

I still say that for a great casual game...waves 1-3 and that's it - is about perfect.

for people who started playing within the last year or two....this could make life easier. rather than going back and buying the corvette, raider, rebel aces, imp aces, Imp veterans, guns for hire...to 'fix' ships and get them up to speed, they buy a conversion pack and hope to score a lot off a player who is coming off the game.

lj1983 wrote:

edulis wrote: Looking at some of the pictures and it looks like the TIE fighter dial remains the same, so in theory players can use old dials there.

Also I am confused on why the imperials would get 3 dials for a decimator in the conversion kit and only 2 for a TIE advance. weird.

3 Deci dials is dumb. so dumb it could easily be a typo. not like there have been mistakes in FFG articles before.

and yeah, that would be great for TIE fighters if the old dial and cardboard would still work. not for "OFFICIAL TOURNAMENTS" but as long as it plays well with the rest of the game, that helps a lot of people out.

I still say that for a great casual game...waves 1-3 and that's it - is about perfect.

for people who started playing within the last year or two....this could make life easier. rather than going back and buying the corvette, raider, rebel aces, imp aces, Imp veterans, guns for hire...to 'fix' ships and get them up to speed, they buy a conversion pack and hope to score a lot off a player who is coming off the game.

Speculation is there are 3 decimator dials because the die cuts used for the punchboards are the same. Since Rebs have more larger dial ships that kind of makes sense.

Michael - you should really play Wings of Glory. I know it ain't Star Wars, but the game seems more what you want. I got into Battle of Britain stuff after Dunkirk came out. It's MUCH better as a casual game.