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Questions about FFG's Living Card Games

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11 Oct 2012 19:50 #135853 by Egg Shen
So this sort of popped into my head after reading Ken's article...I decided to make a thread about it here instead of discussing it in the comments under the article.

So FFG has a few LCGs available now. The only one I've ever purchased was the core set of Call of Cthulhu. It never really struck a chord with me and I've only played it once or twice (years ago). However, Ken's article about Netrunner has me sort of gotten me interested in this type of game. When I first tried out CoC I just wasn't into it. I was more into "take that" card games not stuff where you have to construct a deck and look for combos. Now in this age of deckbuilders and LCGs I'm starting to see the appeal. I honestly almost traded away my core set a few months ago, but I'm looking to try playing it some more. I'm thinking that I missed something.

My questions to those that enjoy these card games are:

1) Out of all the LCGs which is your favorite? Should I stick with CoC?

2) Besides the core set how many expansions should you invest in (for casual play)?

3) Any tips or advice that I should know about the format before I go tossing money at expansions?

Feel free to add any general comments as well.

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11 Oct 2012 20:54 #135862 by jeb
My friend and I have been playing A GAME OF THRONES LCG with just the base set and have been having a good time. For 2p, it's pretty much just standard CCG resource management with head-to-head combat and removal. Comes with 4 decks, all differently tuned. If you get 4 players though, it gains this cool board game element with role selection that enhances and limits your ability to get shit done.

I don't think you need to wring your hands on expansions either, we don't seem to be wearing it out any after a few plays. From what I have seen, biggish lots go up on BGG from time to time as folks tire of it.

I couldn't get the hang of CoC. Just wasn't enough going on for me.

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11 Oct 2012 20:56 - 11 Oct 2012 21:04 #135863 by dragonstout
(psssssst, Magic is the best game of all time...)

I think the first and by far the most important question to anyone asking about how to go about a CCG/LCG is: do you have buddies who want to build their own collections and build decks to compete against you? The answer to that drastically changes how you should go about C/LCGs, and is the reason why I've avoided Android Netrunner despite Netrunner being an awesome game.

These games are *made* for the "yes" answer to that question. If you answered "yes", then you should be warned that you basically won't have any choice about "how many expansions should you invest in", because you'll be having to buy whatever expansions the other players are buying to keep up with the Joneses. Magic will be MUCH more expensive to play in this way than an LCG.

If you have some control over the buying habits of your playgroup (i.e. you can all make a deal with each other ahead of time), THEN Magic is just as cheap as an LCG for that purpose, if not cheaper: you just set a dollar limit for everyone on how many packs they can buy.

Okay, but most BOARD gamers I think would answer "no" to the above question. That means that it's all on YOU to have stuff for your friends to play with. Thankfully there are still a few options for this.

For an LCG, your options are: 1) play the 7 preconstructed decks in the Core box ad nauseam or 2) do what I consider to be ridiculous, which is to build multiple balanced preconstructed decks from your pool yourself. This is very tricky and takes a huge amount of effort to balance, BUT lots of people really really love doing this.

With Magic, each set released has a number of preconstructed decks associated with it, so you can do #1 but with the nice benefit that you don't have to stick to the same 7 forever. Alternatively, there are the incredibly insanely absurdly cheap preconstructed decks out of nothing but commons that I wrote about in my article for this site. So I'd say Magic is better for option #1 than an LCG is. Option #2 is also available, and is more difficult with Magic than with an LCG. A third option #3 which is available for Magic but not for LCGs is building a draft cube. None of the other games are remotely built for drafting, but with Magic more time is spent playtesting for draft/sealed deck and more cards are designed for it than for any other format.

I should summarize those options:
0) Build own decks to play against decks built by friends from their own collections (drawback: expensive, requires continued purchases)
1) Play publisher-constructed decks (drawbacks: not as interesting, no deckbuilding, less variety)
2) Play self-constructed decks (drawbacks: big time-investment, much bigger than just constructing your own deck to compete against friends)
3) Cube (drawbacks: not playable with LCGs, which are not designed for drafting)
Last edit: 11 Oct 2012 21:04 by dragonstout.
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11 Oct 2012 22:07 - 11 Oct 2012 22:08 #135865 by bioball
I think dragonstout has covered it all but I'll throw in my two cents.

I agree that the most important question is: "Do I have friends or a local store that has a strong LCG community?" If "No", then I would recommend getting one of the great offerings from Small Box Games. They offer deck-building options, deep play, but the games are more self-contained than any of the FFG offerings. If "Yes", then FFG's offering are perfect for you. But would just jump on board whatever the community is playing.

Of FFGs LCG, I think CoC has always had great potential but I just think there is a lack of support for the game from FFG. But maybe the problem is that I've never really invested too deep beyond the core set. However given the FFG has several card games out I (again) question the companies ability to really dig deep into the game.

I've recently picked up Netrunner and I think the core set is far more playable than CoC. Everything seems to mesh well and just playing each of the Corps or Runners with the neutral cards mixed in seems to provide for a good experience. I've yet to even get into the rules for mixing the decks together. This could also be because FFG finally understands in thier own mind what LCG is going to represent and how to structure things.

That said the key is still "Do you have a player base?" Without 3 to 4 other people willing to construct decks with you the whole deck-building card game experience will be a little shallow. And I too think that really Magic is the gold standard be it drafts, constructed or cube formats.
Last edit: 11 Oct 2012 22:08 by bioball. Reason: Additions
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12 Oct 2012 00:17 #135879 by metalface13
The only LCG I've played is Android: Netrunner. But I have played around a little with demo decks for Game of Thrones and Call of Cthulhu. AGOT and COC I imagine suffer a little bit from being CCG games shoehorned into the LCG format. I have played the original Netrunner and I think the new LCG is just as good. It's just got different cards. All of the decks have unique flavors and strategies to them.

That being said, I hate building decks. I'm terrible at it. That's why I really enjoy fixed-deck formats and why I enjoy the Duels of the Planeswalkers so much.

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12 Oct 2012 01:32 #135882 by Jackwraith
Dragonstout's comparison is actually pretty flawed. It's easy to say "set a dollar amount" for you and your friends and then end up suffering when your friend pulls really playable rares from his random packs and you end up with junk. That's the problem with CCGs: random packs. The LCG format means you and all your friends get every card whenever a new pack is released. That's $10/month if you want to keep up with every one or less than that if you just want to pick up a cycle or two as you feel like it. You'll spend far more than that trying to construct decks of M:TG, whether you're just starting now or you've been playing since Beta.

But the most pertinent point is one that everyone has raised: you need players if you're really going to invest time in it. I've been trying to get people going with Netrunner around Ann Arbor and it's tough. I've only gotten a couple dozen games in and I'd like to do the whole deckbuilding/tournament thing. I'd have done the same for CoC years ago, but couldn't find regular opponents. But I like Netrunner even more than CoC, so I'm making the attempt. I played some GoT, as well and didn't care for it as much as I did the other two.

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12 Oct 2012 03:25 #135886 by dragonstout

Jackwraith wrote: Dragonstout's comparison is actually pretty flawed. It's easy to say "set a dollar amount" for you and your friends and then end up suffering when your friend pulls really playable rares from his random packs and you end up with junk. That's the problem with CCGs: random packs. The LCG format means you and all your friends get every card whenever a new pack is released. That's $10/month if you want to keep up with every one or less than that if you just want to pick up a cycle or two as you feel like it. You'll spend far more than that trying to construct decks of M:TG, whether you're just starting now or you've been playing since Beta.


You'll spend WAY more than that on Magic if you don't set the dollar amount, like you said; but you can easily set a $10 amount and buy three Magic booster packs a month. That's actually LESS than the amount we've set in our playgroup.

Yes, they're random packs. We find that this makes it MUCH more fun, because we don't all have symmetric collections. Once you've got more than like 6 packs, the "I got junk / you got treasure" balances out pretty quickly, especially because with limited collections like that it's more about the commons & uncommons than the rares anyway. You can also allow trading if you want. It's way more fun than everyone having the exact same cards, just like Cosmic Encounter is more fun with everyone having different powers, even if yes, some are weaker and some are stronger.

But to each his own.

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12 Oct 2012 09:06 #135894 by mads b.
I've played a bit of Warhammer: Invasion which is fast, fun, and brutal. The different races seem to play very differently and overall I quite liked it. But since I only had one friend who also bought some stuff I don't really play it anymore.

I do play a lot of Lord of the Rings though. Mostly solo, but sometimes with my wife. I'm not all that keen on the deck building, but I think the scenarios are (mostly) a blast. You really get a lot af story in some of them.

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12 Oct 2012 13:45 #135908 by Msample
Warhammer Invasion was the first LCG I got into. In retrospect I probably bought too many expansions, as towards the end ( I stopped about the time LotR came out ) I had stopped playing. It is the most straightforward of the LCGs though - line up and beat the crap out of each other.

Other than being a bit thin on the faction neutral cards, Netrunner is the most playable one out of the box IMO.

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12 Oct 2012 13:55 #135909 by Egg Shen
Thanks for all the info guys.

The answer to that question would most certainly be a no. I'm not looking to play competitively or anything like that. Basically, I want to be able to pull it off the shelf like a board game and just play it from time to time. Much more of a casual experience. I'd like to have enough stuff where me and my opponent could sift through the cards, construct a deck and play a couple of games.

Looking at the rules of the game and going through the cards I think my disappointment with CoC was partially my own doing. At the time of playing I didn't really understand how some cards meshed together. However, I don't believe that the core set provides enough variation to really make the game super enjoyable. Buying an asylum pack or two might help in this regard. I can't say for sure until I play it again. Hopefully this weekend.

Warhammer does look like the best of FFG's LCGs (well it might get usurped by Netrunner now). I agree with Msample that it appears to be the most straightforward. CoC bothered me back in the day because you're fighting over 'story cards' and it just seemed sort of lame in comparison. However, I'm not sure how else they could have meshed the theme with the gameplay without complicating things a bit...

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12 Oct 2012 15:41 #135921 by Msample
Last I looked over on BGG I didn't see any for sale, but I'd throw out an inquiry in the CCG/LCG forum to see if anyone is looking to unload W:I cards.

Unlike Magic, the good thing about LCG is that they are all currently in print and probably pretty cheap to get second hand.

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12 Oct 2012 16:55 #135931 by dragonstout

Egg Shen wrote: The answer to that question would most certainly be a no. I'm not looking to play competitively or anything like that. Basically, I want to be able to pull it off the shelf like a board game and just play it from time to time. Much more of a casual experience. I'd like to have enough stuff where me and my opponent could sift through the cards, construct a deck and play a couple of games.


To me, I can't imagine that buying another asylum pack would make the process you just described more fun. The thing about deckbuilding for an LCG/CCG is: it takes time. You really can't just sit down with a box of hundreds of cards and a buddy and both have decks that are fun within 15 minutes; rather, you can, but you're missing out on the primary appeal of deckbuilding. You've really got to 1) use preconstructed decks, which an asylum pack does NOT contribute to, 2) make balanced decks on your own, which an aslum pack DOES contribute to, 3) work from a limited cardpool, i.e. randomly pick two factions for yourself and two for your opponent, shuffle up the neutrals and split them in two, and then both sit there and make a deck. Even then though, it takes time.

Just saying, C/LCGs are a tricky thing for a board-gamer to get full value out of.

Also, about LCGs being in print and old Magic sets being out of print: outside of the REALLY old sets (like 15+ years), Magic sets older than 2 years tend to be significantly CHEAPER than in-print sets.
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13 Oct 2012 09:23 #135976 by Stormcow
I've owned AGoT LCG, Warhammer LCG, LotR LCG, and Netrunner. I'd rank them as: Netrunner > AGoT > WH:I >>> LotR. My biggest complaint against LGCs is that the core set decks feel so incomplete. Yeah, sure you can have fun with them, but they were really designed to leave you unsatisfied.

If you want to play an LCG like a board game, my recommendation is to buy ONE Netrunner Core Set, full stop (Which is what I intend to do). Seriously, unless you have invested competitors, there isn't a lot of value in buying only some of the chapter packs. Either stick with just the core set, or be competitive and go all the way.

If you really want to get some "friendly" constructed going on... I don't think the other LCGs will work as well as you imagine. What happens when you and your opponent both want to use the same card? It can happen a lot, especially in AGoT where you can put Lannister characters in a Stark deck, and most events and locations are pure Neutral. WH:I is better because you could play it as good vs evil, but still, there are neutral cards. Netrunner solves this concern because cards are either corp or runner - there are no cards which can be used on both sides.

Or, maybe get into Summoner Wars and buy reinforcement decks - the spending cap in SW is pretty low on a per faction basis, since the number of cards available per faction is very tightly controlled - each faction has only one starter deck and one reinforcement pack, and then you're done.

But really the best game for short term, on-the-fly construction is Limited M:tG - I think it does what you want better than any LCG does. Modern sets have been calibrated to facilitate a good deck-building experience from random piles of mostly commons. It's really not so hard to get something between two copies of this cheap set or this big package . Plus about a hundred basic lands, and then you can replay that set forever.
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14 Oct 2012 10:50 - 14 Oct 2012 15:39 #136000 by sornars
I'll reiterate what the others said. LCGs don't actually work that great under the board game model. What they do well is constructed play but that is a commitment you have to make. It's an easy one to make right now with Netrunner just being released but on any of the older titles, you're in for a lot of acquisitions if you want to play with an established community. The exception to this rule is LoTR. Due to its cooperative nature you can expand at whatever rate you and your group like to. The problem is you will probably get bored playing the same scenarios over and over again so you'll end up wanting more expansions as time goes on.

To answer your questions directly:

1) My favourite LCG is probably AGoT but Netrunner is giving it a good run for the money.

AGoT is great in that it is similar to Magic but I tend to like the mechanics a bit more, particularly the plot cards. The flip side of this is the game is a touch more complex, in a burden of rules sense, then Magic. I like the theme in AGoT as the designers do a wonderful job of capturing the universe in the cards they make. It's very rare that I connect myself with a planeswalker when playing Magic but I do see the sweeping scope of The Song and Ice and Fire universe when playing AGoT. If you don't care for the universe then it's still a solid game.

Netrunner has come out with a bang and I'm convinced that it will be a great game to pick up. Luckily for you the core set is quite functional as is and is probably the best game that works right out of the box. Thematic and tense with a minimum of rules clutter. Players play each other more than the game in Netrunner so that leads to both players feeling like they won or lost the game rather than bad draw, deck matchups, etc. costing them the match.

I've never played CoC and LoTR just didn't strike a chord with me. I can see that LoTR is a solid game but I'm not in love with the LoTR theme (which the game does successfully evoke) so I ended up dropping that game after a few plays.

I always forget that Warhammer even exists.

The upcoming Star Wars LCG looks interesting as the burden of deckbuilding has been reduced significantly. Cards come in packs with objectives and you throw together a deck of objectives that require the cards they came with to be in the deck with them. It's a unique take on deckbuilding that sounds pretty interesting but unfortunately it's not out yet and I'm not hugely into the Star Wars theme.

2) For casual play that is kind of up to you. I think most people will get bored playing a single deck in the LCGs so the temptation to keep up with the Joneses is quite strong and there is a constant itch to keep trying out different decks. This requires a time commitment to building the decks and knowing the cards. As dragonstout pointed out earlier, an established community essentially forces you to keep up with expansions and is a massive time commitment in terms of actually building decks. If you don't like deckbuilding/would rather play sealed/limited events then I don't think the LCG format is for you.

3) Play the cores first. If you like what you see (and most are designed to only give you a taste of the game, just enough to leave you wanting more) then go into expansion territory but do so slowly. That way you have the chance to back out before you're hundreds of dollars worth of product into a game you might not have the time for (the temptation with these LCGs to do this is quite strong).

My personal recommendation to you would be either a single Netrunner core or Magic. Those two sound like they align the most with your priorities. Summoner Wars is another great suggestion but I feel that game is more miniatures than cards. Still a great option though.
Last edit: 14 Oct 2012 15:39 by sornars.
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14 Oct 2012 15:24 #136005 by dragonstout
Just to make clear: what I said was a huge time commitment was not making your own deck (which I find fun), but making a set of balanced decks. That is a huge PITA.

Just to demonstrate what I feel about the LCG format...I was actually really excited about Android Netrunner IF there was going to be a community around here to play constructed against. REALLY excited, especially since there are no "Netrunner pros" whose decklists are so honed that it seems foolish not to just use their work if I want to really win against other people doing the same.

However, once I realized that this wasn't going to happen and that I'd be primarily playing with just my own collection with friends, I bought up a bunch of sealed decks of the OLD Netrunner CCG. This gives me more variety within-deck than just an LCG core set would, and there's still a limited amount of deckbuilding since a starter + a booster per person means that you can cut about 22 cards from your deck.

So what I'm saying is: even a dead CCG was better than an LCG, for me, if I was going to be the only one with the cards.

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