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Magic and the "dominion" problem

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16 Aug 2013 17:08 #158700 by bomber
alright, I thought it might be a bit less boring to read with some fluff :) I made quite a few noob mistakes but as I said, in the previous games I dont think I did any of that, I think I just got unlucky with lack of early mana for one thing.

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16 Aug 2013 17:41 - 16 Aug 2013 17:44 #158705 by dragonstout

ldsdbomber wrote: The duel commences, in my hands, 3 swamps, a veilborn ghoul, staff of the death magnus magnusson. tendrils of corruption, oh, and a black cat. I accept this hand and proceed to meet the wretched cuntists of skirsdag, which in swedish means the day between wednesday and thursday. OK I made that last bit up

Okay, so first of all: I see this hand, and the only thing that matters here is the Tendrils of Corruption. When you get up to 6 swamps you can play it and both kill his demon and negate 6 points of the life loss. The black cat is nice too, in that it should help slow down the second wave of Apostles via the discard.

ldsdbomber wrote: cuntist plays swamp, and the first shadowborn pete apostlethwaite

I draw doom blade, great, it destroys non black creatures. that should be useful against a black deck demon spawn

I swamp like it was 1995, its only "basic land" though, I dont know where the advanced swamps are

now I missed the action, it seems like postlethwaite attacked me (down to 19) is spinal (tapped) and then another postlethwaite is played, but I thought the summoning came before the attacking, so I must be missing something here, because Postlethwaites alter ego is definitely arriving into the party AFTER the original has swatted me for 1 damage

and now I'm really confused because hes tapped both his swamps and now there are 3 pete postlethwaites in front him and now its my turn. I guess I thought it should go like this swamp/postlethewaite (sick), turn 2: swamp/postlethwaitex2 (both sick), attack with postlethwaite1, but it seems to be happening in the opposite order.

You have two main phases: one before you attack and one afterward. Unless you have a GOOD REASON, it is better to cast things AFTER you attack. Casting cards before you attack is part of what I was talking about before when I said that new players "leak information". I will make different blocking decisions if I know you have a creature than if I don't. Don't give me that information for free.

ldsdbomber wrote: Anyway, I get my second vile swamp down, I guess I will throw the black cat out there, the only one I can play, to block one of his petes, as it will also remove one of his cards at random, thus perhaps slowing down the arrival of the Russell Brand Demon.

Good plan, not that you have much of a choice. It is unlikely that he will attack with the Apostles on his turn because of this.

ldsdbomber wrote: more swamp and an attack, and here again my first UI bollocks, as trying to drag that fucking pussy fucker onto the postlethwaite nothing happens and in a panic I click the shield button, too late, that button means "dont fucking block". you cunt!

He attacked? Yeah, that misclick sucked, because that would have been a way to kill two Apostles with one cat. His attack tells me that either the AI recognizes that his deck isn't going to win with a Demon against you, or that he has enough Apostles so that he can afford to lose a couple and still summon the demon next turn.

ldsdbomber wrote: I may as well attack with the cat, since if its blocked, one of his postlethewaites dies, and otherwise he has 6 shortly and the demon arrives and im fucked again. (PS why can my cat not fucking attack one of his postlethwaites directly, or am I doing it wrong? it seems a bit weird that it can only attack mr skirsdag himself)

This was a mistake. What's your goal with this attack? Think about things from his perspective. Does he care about losing a life? Obviously not, at this point. To refer to the famous Magic article, YOU are NOT the beatdown right now. That cat is much more valuable to you as something to trade with an Apostle. He has 5 out right now, and he needs 6 to summon his demon. by my count he has 2 cards left in his hand (and will draw one on his turn). If two of those three are swamps or demons? Then he CANNOT attack you AND get the demon out on his turn, IF you keep the cat back to block. That will save you 5 life, a quarter of your life total.

And no, you cannot attack creatures directly. You're thinking of Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh. This way, BOTH players have combat choices on ALL turns.

ldsdbomber wrote: he doesnt block, cos he knows damn well hes bringing mr fat head in next round

he now plays swamp, so he has 4 mana, he now has 5 postlethewaites all launching an attack. Now I realise another chump mistake I'm making. My furry pussy, tired from scratching at the eyes of mr boss cuntist cannot block these baldy hollywood bit part mother fuckers, so im down to 11 health compared to his 19. and demon is lurking.....

AND HERE HE IS, and whats worse, he doesnt even get the biscuits in when he arrives, no, he only goes and kills my fucking cat! I just hope to draw the "ring the RSPCA" card, because I dont think Rolf Harris is going to stand for this.

OK, Im now at 4 swamps, seems lke he has 4 too, but he has CatKiller 5/6 sat laughing in my general direction and I have fuck all to block with, the only card I can actually play is the tendrils of corruption, at least it seems thats going to cause 4 damage and I gained 1 from Magnus Magnussons ability, so its

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH its damage to his creatures, great, rookie mistake number 3, since those 4 damage didnt do anything to demon features, and now tendrils is dead, I guess I should have saved him for when I had 6 mana, job done. FUCK! I shudder to think of the laughing echoing round Canada now, why I posit that Black Barney MAY, MAY have had a little bit of wee come out as he laughs at my noobish folly here

lol yeah dude. As I said from the beginning, Tendrils on the Demon is your big hope for winning this game, given your opening hand.

ldsdbomber wrote: 19-13 down as my staff boosts me a bit, little do I know that my magely fat fingers just accidentally touched fleshbag marauder while laughing at Black Barney slightly wetting himself, and now I wasted ANOTHER card that could have killed demon, of course he had one shitty pete postlethwaite with him, so I waste the sacrifice on one of those clowns

Note that, had you not misplayed your Tendrils, you could've tendrils'ed his Apostle at the end of his turn (since you don't have 6 mana yet) and then Fleshbag Marauder'ed his only creature on your own turn. That was the correct play.

ldsdbomber wrote: At this point, I know it looks like I'm fucking clueless and I totally accept the point, I did spend too much time stealing panties from the witches guild changing rooms, but HONESTLY the previous few defeats I've not seen any of these creatures like the marauder or tendrils that I can at least see now would rid me of this demon if played at the right point


OK my 6th swamp down, down 10-20

ALRIGHT, Doom Blade doesnt do shit, and Veilborn ghoul seems kinda lame, but what have we here... yes, thats right, CRUEL REVIVAL which sounds like some shitty aging hippy rock band, but seems to destroy target non zombie creature
lets try this

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


Demon is summarily dispatched (beeyatch!), and not only that I get to yank big fat fucking fleshy marauder blob out of my graveyard where he's been doing the Uma Thurman finger pokey thing (unsuccessfully I might add) and can now be saved for being unleashed if the demon is ever sat there on his lonesome

I'm still 19-10 down but somehow I'm feeling a bit more cocky now. Yeah. Not so moist now eh, Mister Black Barney of Canada huh!



Now Im up to like 7 mana, but Veilborn Ghoul dude, who I STRONGLY suspect is just one of the many Scooby Doo janitors in a blanket, is a 4/1 without trample and thus FUCKING USELESS since he will get blocked by the postlers, anyway, I send him forth with a newly shopped Black Kitty Cat, oh it seems Ghouly dont do blocking, but at least Kitty Cat is up for it and dies again, ripping another card from his hand at least, only 7 more deaths to go kitty katty.

Its my go again, my life slowly increasing like the philosophical unstoppable force, impending doom lurking in the back of postlethwaites mind, ice cold fear gnawing at his self confidence as the night draws in around us both. 19-14 now and only one of your postlers in front of you. The Demons Whispers fade to silence, for now

I skip the ghoul attack as I dont know what to do with him.

WTF dude. That card tells you, on the fucking card, what to do with him. "Veilborn Ghoul cannot block". That is intentional to make it harder for noobs to screw up with the card, because noobs are notoriously afraid of attacking (though not so afraid earlier when you incorrectly attacked with the Black Cat!). ATTACK WITH THAT MOTHERFUCKER. He comes back to life every time you play a swamp anyway. So now you can trade your swamps, essentially, for his Apostles. And every turn he does not do the trade, he takes 4. This is practically a lock; he can't get the Demon out without dying from the Ghoul. You just have to make sure that your Ghoul kills him faster than his attacking Apostles kill you, but a single blocker will do that for you. You don't want to play any swamps until your Ghoul dies at this point. Think of every swamp as a Ghoul revival.

ldsdbomber wrote: The postler can block him, sure, he has some kind of Uma Thurman skill too, but I dont see the point of just getting him killed to restore him later so I leave him hanging, like one of those annoying unresolved plot points in a bad movie, driving the thousands of people reading this report to speculate on their theories to the inner meaning of the ghouls presence, but this is not a David Lynch movie, but more like Lost, like, I'm just making bullshit up as I go along, and we knew they were fucking dead from the first episode you smarmy cunts

Hes just postling awa now, I think he knows his number is up, I just await some great evil to summon, though Im up to 9 mana and have only the spectacularly useless Doom Blade in hand

Just wanted to note that at this point he should be close to dead due to the Ghoul, or have fewer Apostles from trading them with your Ghoul.

ldsdbomber wrote: Hes now postling away at my mage and now I try to work out why fleshy marauder is back in the graveyard, huh? Did I click him into the action by accident. Fuck you Canada!

I'm not sure what you did here, but, uh...

ldsdbomber wrote: 10 swamps up now, still just the Doom Blade, or as I call it the Lame Spoon. Let me know if any non black creatures show up will ya

19-13 down now and I'm starting to get nervous, those baldy fuckers are rising again, 4 of them all laid down on their sides, and again nothing but swamps

11 swamps and the Lame Spoon. Useless, wheres my fucking tendrils of dont worry this wont hurt a bit dear gone

fuck it, I send ghouly in, fuck, he didnt block, hes getting a demon hardon so maybe I should have sent ghouly in earlier!

he sends 4 postlers at me and adds a 5th after making the score 15-11, at least I know I can send Ghouly in again as demon is clearly about to jump through the paper stage rear again like a big camp badass, Surprise he will say with a lisp.

By now, as is obvious, this is WAY too late. He should be dead via Ghoul by now, or have been trading his Apostles for your swamps.

ldsdbomber wrote: I draw swamp AGAIN. Its like the exact opposite of before, now all I get is swamp, 12 of the fuckers. Is this some kind of record

Ghouly does his thing, Im temporarily in the lead 12-11, but someones coming to visit.............

SHIT, 5 postlers (unblockable) and heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeres a 6th
wait, what, he only has 1 demon in his deck? what the fuck? thats.... weird. LUcky for me I guess, but why has he not been blocking ghouly then, this makes NO SENSE TO ME

It's not clear what you're saying. Are you just surprised that he's not summoning the demon? Sounds like he'll kill you with the Apostles in two hits, so why risk playing a demon that could get Tendrils'ed or Cruel Revival'ed?

ldsdbomber wrote: I draw.... SWAMP. Fuck you. I do a virtual table flip, and can only pray that Barney has wet himself in his FAVOURITE TROUSERS

I'm 8-7 ahead but feel stupid as I didnt attack with ghoul a couple of times assuming it would be pointless

his 6 postlers get me down to 2, so now its all over as I draw Butcher Ghoul 1/1 undying. great. My kingdom is overrun by the fucking demonic horde and they send me a simple sausage maker to fix it.

I mean, NOW they block Ghouly for no apparent reason when they could have done it at any time before. so I guess I now lose

This last bit is really really important. Let's use a really simple example. Suppose neither of you have hands, except that you have swamps to bring back the Ghoul whenever it dies. He has 12 life, you have 7 life, he has three 1/1 Apostles. It's your turn, and you attack. Who wins the game?

If he blocks with one of the 1/1s immediately, YOU win the game. If he waits until two turns from now to start blocking, then HE wins the game. I highly recommend doing the math to figure it out.

This is an important principle in general, which is that you do not start "chump" blocking (blocking where the blocker dies and essentially nothing happens to the attacker) until it is your only choice. Against red you have to be more careful, but that's something to think about as well.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 17:44 by dragonstout.
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16 Aug 2013 17:49 #158706 by dragonstout

jeb wrote: He needs to have SIX of those guys out to get the baddie. So one strategy is to not let him get that many. Use spells that kill his guys, sneaky blocking (like attacking, then untapping somehow and blocking, &c). Meanwhile, beat him down. Your 1/1s are "worse" than his 1/1s, as he really wants six of them to summon the big bad.

The key point that Jeb is getting at here is: he will not want to trade/chump away his Apostles, so you can attack with impunity as long as you have a SINGLE blocker behind who can eat an Apostle if he attacks.

jeb wrote: Alternately let him drop all those guys and summon the big bad--you know it's coming. Then remove THAT. You can either elimintae cards from his graveyard through some effect as the demon needs them there, or you can save a couple of firebolts and lay them all into the big fella.

If you have that green deck, then send your 3/3 guys in on the attack, he will block one and kill it, then use one of those "Fight" spells to hit him for another 3 damage. It's very costly, but it gets rid of that guy.

Jeb's other key point here, when he talks about using up 2 (or even 3, in the "Fight" example!) cards to kill the demon, is: your opponent used SIX cards to get the demon. If you trade 2 cards for it, you're still WAY ahead (though the demon probably killed one of your dudes when it came out, so it's more like you traded 3 for 6).

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16 Aug 2013 17:55 #158709 by jeb

dragonstout wrote:

jeb wrote: He needs to have SIX of those guys out to get the baddie. So one strategy is to not let him get that many.

Okay wow I've got a lot of stuff to read in this thread. But definitely DON'T do the above, not until the second wave. It's much better to let him sac 6 dudes and get a 6 for 1 by dealing with his demon than feel like you have to deal with every single apostle.

Okay, I'm going to read your game description now to see what you did wrong. Liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle hard to read with all the overdrama, though.

Dragonstout assumes you are playing a real deck with removal that can reliably kill a black 6/6. This is DotP, man. His best removal at this point might be Prey Upon.

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16 Aug 2013 17:57 - 16 Aug 2013 18:11 #158710 by dragonstout
Both Jeb and Bioball, in talking about waiting until the last moment to play your stuff, are very correct, and this is because information is KING. If you wait, then you have more information when you play your card. AND, your opponent has LESS information for all the time before you play your card, because he doesn't know that card is in your hand.

But yeah, the whole "wait until the last minute" rule of thumb is literally ALL about information. This is why it always bugs me when people are talking about how "Netrunner, unlike Magic, is all about hidden information"...guys, that's what a huge portion of Magic is about too. But Netrunner hits you over the head with it by playing cards face down; with Magic, it's easier for a noob to miss how he would've or should've played differently if he knew what was in the opponent's hand, and it's ESPECIALLY easy for a noob, or even someone who's played for years without thinking too much about it, to miss how your opponent is playing differently depending on what information you're giving HIM.

This is also why people constantly miss that the RUNNER in Netrunner also has a huge amount of hidden information, to me more important than the Corp's hidden info. His HAND, dude. Hands are hidden!

This has been really fun, btw. I love nuts & bolts Magic talk, and it's not often that you get to annotate a complete game, especially one in which the opponent's deck is incredibly simple so you're practically playing a perfect information, perfectly analyzable game.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 18:11 by dragonstout.
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16 Aug 2013 18:10 - 16 Aug 2013 18:25 #158712 by dragonstout

jeb wrote:

dragonstout wrote:

jeb wrote: He needs to have SIX of those guys out to get the baddie. So one strategy is to not let him get that many.

Okay wow I've got a lot of stuff to read in this thread. But definitely DON'T do the above, not until the second wave. It's much better to let him sac 6 dudes and get a 6 for 1 by dealing with his demon than feel like you have to deal with every single apostle.

Okay, I'm going to read your game description now to see what you did wrong. Liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle hard to read with all the overdrama, though.

Dragonstout assumes you are playing a real deck with removal that can reliably kill a black 6/6. This is DotP, man. His best removal at this point might be Prey Upon.

Naw dude, I was looking at the DotP decks.

In that black deck he was playing, he's got Cruel Revivals, Tendrils of Corruption, and Fleshbag Marauders. He's also got Nightmare and Grave Titan, which kick the Demon's ass, and Liliana's Reaver, which can attack into the Demon.

In the green deck, then yeah, you could use Prey Upons on his Apostles, but it's not likely to stop the Demon (though it might stop the SECOND demon). I still think your best bet to stop the demon is two spiders or a spider + Oakenform, and then just sit back and WAIT until you get Kalonian Hydra and kill him singlehandedly with that, or an Oakenformed dude big enough to Prey Upon or Hunt the Weak the Demon himself, or an Overrun + Prey Upon, or an Enlarge + Prey Upon, or hell, just an Overrun + "winning".

BTW, a timing thing that might not be obvious: if you have Primeval Bounty out, then using Prey Upon with any 3-power creature will kill the demon, because you put the counters on the creature before the Prey Upon resolves.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 18:25 by dragonstout.

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16 Aug 2013 18:12 #158713 by dragonstout

San Il Defanso wrote: I did my first sealed event last night, and I thought I would walk away with the same conclusion. I think the more accurate way to put it is that while the deckbuilding might be the deepest part of the game, the cardplay is far less automatic than I had been led to believe. You don't just throw all of your creatures on the board and call it a day. There's a lot of timing that goes into it, especially as to when you cast instants. When you're playing against a deck you've never seen, it's a little nerve-wracking to have a Cancel in your hand, and wondering when you should use it.

I had a ball last night by the way. It's the first night of our monthly league, so I really think it'll be something to get into.

Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze post your card pool, and your decklist! I know it's a bit of a pain.

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16 Aug 2013 18:12 #158714 by RobertB
Like dragonstout says - just always do combat before you cast main phase stuff unless it's something that needs to be on the table before combat (like some killer Sorcery).

Also, don't ever tap out or play your last card, unless it's key. If you're sitting there with two lands and a card in your hand, your opponent has to think. She doesn't know that it's your seventh Plains.

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16 Aug 2013 18:29 #158719 by bomber
Thanks guys, I should remind you this is like the first time I've played and clearly I don't even have the basic rules down pat yet, and that's caused me issues even trying to work out what happens

I'm happy to say that after one more beat down I managed to cruel revival his sorry ass and even had time to get death of dooms gate or some 9/9 fucker so I won 25 to -8

I think I better sit down and wrap my head round the order of play and see if that makes it easier to see dragonstouts advice more clearly.

Again though, I did the tutorial and then the campaign, so this matchup has been like the 3rd, 4th,5th and 6th time ive ever played!

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16 Aug 2013 18:32 #158721 by san il defanso

dragonstout wrote:

San Il Defanso wrote: I did my first sealed event last night, and I thought I would walk away with the same conclusion. I think the more accurate way to put it is that while the deckbuilding might be the deepest part of the game, the cardplay is far less automatic than I had been led to believe. You don't just throw all of your creatures on the board and call it a day. There's a lot of timing that goes into it, especially as to when you cast instants. When you're playing against a deck you've never seen, it's a little nerve-wracking to have a Cancel in your hand, and wondering when you should use it.

I had a ball last night by the way. It's the first night of our monthly league, so I really think it'll be something to get into.

Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze post your card pool, and your decklist! I know it's a bit of a pain.


I'll get it up sometime this weekend, even though it feels like the gaming equivalent of those shirtless weigh-ins on The Biggest Loser.
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16 Aug 2013 18:48 - 16 Aug 2013 18:49 #158725 by dragonstout

ldsdbomber wrote: Thanks guys, I should remind you this is like the first time I've played and clearly I don't even have the basic rules down pat yet, and that's caused me issues even trying to work out what happens

I'm happy to say that after one more beat down I managed to cruel revival his sorry ass and even had time to get death of dooms gate or some 9/9 fucker so I won 25 to -8

I think I better sit down and wrap my head round the order of play and see if that makes it easier to see dragonstouts advice more clearly.

Again though, I did the tutorial and then the campaign, so this matchup has been like the 3rd, 4th,5th and 6th time ive ever played!

Great! I hope I didn't sound too harsh, I am pretty bad in general about not sounding harsh. My harshness may have come from how *drastic* the mistakes being made were; there were a bunch of mistakes, but the two HUGE mistakes that threw the game away were not killing the demon earlier and not attacking with the Veilborn Ghoul earlier. You were given a game-win, and then threw it away; and then given another easy win, and then threw that win away too! I guess my main point is that no, the game does not "play itself", especially not at the noob-level.

I am THRILLED to be reading about you learning to play Magic.

Congrats on your new win, by the way! As Jeb pointed out, though, winning "25 to -8" is the exact same as winning "1 to 0"; the object of the game is to get the opponent's life total to 0 before he gets yours to 0, not to maximize the disparity in life total. Your life total is just a resource that gives you TIME and OPTIONS: the less life you have, the less time and options you have, but when you have more life, don't be afraid to lose that life to buy time or to buy options.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 18:49 by dragonstout.

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16 Aug 2013 19:17 #158731 by bomber
Yeah no worries advice received with welcome :)

I think I was thinking ok it's stupid to lose a 4 attack creature to a1/1 I wasn't seeing the revival thing and dont yet have a full grasp on the play flow, even blocking. I won't make that mistake again, hopefully haha

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16 Aug 2013 21:10 #158749 by bomber
Well it only took me 2 tries to beat angry mob with the green forest beasty ones, and then I took the blue mind maze lot in the chapter finale against sigismund and kicked his ass first try 20-0. Rock and roll

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16 Aug 2013 22:30 - 16 Aug 2013 22:31 #158755 by bioball

dragonstout wrote: Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze post your card pool, and your decklist! I know it's a bit of a pain.


I think we can pull the deck lists and the card pool of each new booster opened. I think the beginning card pool for each player would be a bit much. That way everyone can see the "meta". Also our "pro" looked over everyone's deck and helps a bit and generally approved our picks as the best of our pool. The colors are:
1. GB
2. GWU
3. UR
4. UB
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 22:31 by bioball.

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16 Aug 2013 23:32 - 16 Aug 2013 23:37 #158759 by dragonstout

bioball wrote:

dragonstout wrote: Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze post your card pool, and your decklist! I know it's a bit of a pain.


I think we can pull the deck lists and the card pool of each new booster opened. I think the beginning card pool for each player would be a bit much. That way everyone can see the "meta". Also our "pro" looked over everyone's deck and helps a bit and generally approved our picks as the best of our pool. The colors are:
1. GB
2. GWU
3. UR
4. UB

To me, just decklists are uninteresting; I'm much more interested in what was left out and how it compares to what was left in.

But I know it's a huge PITA, I'm not making anyone do it or anything. I'd just, selfishly, love to see it.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 23:37 by dragonstout.

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