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Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

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× Talk abut Movies & TV here. Just tell us what you have been watching. Have hyper-academic discussions on visual semiotics. Whatever, it's all good.

Marvel Cinematic Universe Thread

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12 Dec 2017 18:53 #259004 by Jackwraith

Michael Barnes wrote: leaning all the way into the Kirby crazypants BP run of the late '70s,

Leaning into Kirby crazy should almost always be done.


Still waiting on that Eternals movie with the full gathering of Celestials and a horde of Deviants...

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12 Dec 2017 22:20 #259008 by Shellhead
There was a short Eternals animated series, based on the Gaiman run.

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13 Dec 2017 05:43 - 13 Dec 2017 06:56 #259014 by Matt Thrower
All right, let's do this then:

Doctor Strange
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: First Avenger
[Logan doesn't count, but goes here]

[Significant quality drop]

[Deadpool doesn't count, but goes here]
Ant-Man
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Iron Man
Captain America: Civil War

[Significant quality drop - can barely remember most of these]

Avengers
Thor
Avengers 2
Iron Man 3
Incredible Hulk
Thor: Dark World
Iron Man 2

I've not seen Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 or the third Thor movie.

The most interesting things for me about my list is how much I seem to like origin movies and how bad, in comparative terms, the ensemble pieces are.

It's also worh noting that, as someone who doesn't read a lot of comics, Captain America looks like one of the least interesting characters in the Marvel stable, yet he's formed the basis for the most consistant quality sub-franchise.
Last edit: 13 Dec 2017 06:56 by Matt Thrower.

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13 Dec 2017 08:08 #259016 by Michael Barnes
Cap is one of the best comics characters- but he’s also more subtle than say Batman or Spider-Man. Because he’s really just a regular good dude trying to do the right thing, albeit super soldiered up. He’s also a natural born leader, and inspires those around him. But really, Cap didn’t have that great, sophisticated, character-defining arc until way late (in the 2000s) - the Ed Brubaker run,which is where all of the Winter Soldier stuff originated.
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13 Dec 2017 08:39 #259019 by Shellhead
Cap did have a great run written by Steve Englehart in the '70s, but maybe not character-defining in a way. That was when he partnered up with Falcon, who even got elevated into title billing: Captain America & the Falcon. Issue #150 featured Cap and the Falcon fighting the crappy right-wing bully versions of Cap and Bucky from the '50s. Then there was a lengthy story involving all the mutants who had gone missing (including in a meta-sense) since X-Men became a reprint title, culminating in an allegorical Watergate moment that led Cap to quit. After a stint as Nomad, the Man Without a Country, Steve became Cap again.

Then Jack Kirby crashed in and made everything weird during 1976, around the time of Captain America & the Falcon #200. Yeah, the Bi-Centennial of America happened just one month before Cap #200.
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13 Dec 2017 09:31 #259020 by Jackwraith
Right. The Engelhart stuff followed hard on the heels of things like Sternako's work on Nick Fury. This was a moment where a new group of creators were making books that were very reflective of the times (like the Spider-Man heroin story) and far more geared toward adult sensibilities. Engelhart put Cap squarely in the frame of the extreme cynicism about politics and government at the time (Vietnam, Watergate, etc.) and tried to show what being a hardcore patriot is like during that transformation of attitudes.

Incidentally, Engelhart was also responsible for another character-defining run when he took over the Batman for a few months and introduced or reintroduced several elements that have had lasting impact on the character ever since (Boss Thorne, the homicidal Joker (in the best Joker story ever written: The Laughing Fish), etc.)

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13 Dec 2017 10:17 #259022 by Shellhead
Englehart deserves more respect in comic circles. At the same time he was writing Cap, he also did a definitive run with Dr. Strange, an extremely different kind of character from Cap. He co-created Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu (with Jim Starlin). Englehart also wrote the Avengers and the Defenders, without making Cap or Strange the star of either title, and then did one of the best crossovers in the history of comics: the Avengers-Defenders War. He created Mantis, who finally hit the big screen in the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Then he went over to DC and did great work on Batman and the Justice League. His writing was very advanced for '70s comics, though it falls short of the greatness of Alan Moore or the wild creativity of Grant Morrison.

Unfortunately, Englehart came back to Marvel and did mostly mediocre work there in the '80s. His work on Silver Surfer was okay, but his Fantastic Four was so-so and his West Coast Avengers was extremely disappointing.

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13 Dec 2017 10:27 - 13 Dec 2017 10:28 #259024 by bfkiller
I think Doctor Strange is the most inconsistent of the Marvel movies. It has some glorious visuals and the martial arts angle is a bit refreshing (not that we haven't ever seen that in other super hero movies, though), but Strange is such an unlikable character in it and Cumberbatch gives such a TERRIBLE performance. No comedic timing whatsoever. Most MCU movies have great senses of humour but the jokes in this one fall flat pretty much every time.

I want to watch GotG 2 again. I was disappointed the first time I watched it. The plot wasn't that interesting since it was basically the Futurama episode "A Bicyclops Built for Two." But I was sitting in an incredibly uncomfortable theatre and I think that was part of why I didn't care for it.
Last edit: 13 Dec 2017 10:28 by bfkiller.

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13 Dec 2017 12:12 - 13 Dec 2017 12:14 #259033 by Matt Thrower

bfkiller wrote: I think Doctor Strange is the most inconsistent of the Marvel movies. It has some glorious visuals and the martial arts angle is a bit refreshing (not that we haven't ever seen that in other super hero movies, though), but Strange is such an unlikable character in it and Cumberbatch gives such a TERRIBLE performance. No comedic timing whatsoever. Most MCU movies have great senses of humour but the jokes in this one fall flat pretty much every time.


Predictably, given my ranking of it at #1, I'm going to disagree. Strange being a bit of an anti-hero adds interest to me: I often find I have more sympathy and engagement with a flawed character. And I think Cumberbatch performs it well, although perhaps not at his best given his impressive work on other fronts.

I'll agree on the comedy front to some extent, although arguably Strange is playing the straight man to the rest of the characters. But the rest of the movies make up for that, and across the whole franchise, Strange is probably the setting and character that need it least.
Last edit: 13 Dec 2017 12:14 by Matt Thrower.

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13 Dec 2017 14:55 #259043 by Joebot

bfkiller wrote: I want to watch GotG 2 again. I was disappointed the first time I watched it. The plot wasn't that interesting since it was basically the Futurama episode "A Bicyclops Built for Two." But I was sitting in an incredibly uncomfortable theatre and I think that was part of why I didn't care for it.


I just rewatched it this week since it popped up on Netflix. I think I liked it even less than when I saw it in the theater (and I didn't like it all that much then). It's got some funny bits, but it commits the cardinal sin of splitting up the team. Why go to the trouble of assembling a fantastic, hilarious cast and then immediately split them up? That drives me nuts.

Also, Kurt Russell is fucking wasted in this movie, and this is simply unforgivable. Kurt Russell is automatically the best thing about everything he's in, and he's a complete non-entity in this movie. No sense of menace, no real humor, nothing. They turn him into yet-another bland MCU villain, no different from that dark elf guy in Thor 2.

My top 3 are:

Captain America: Winter Soldier
Avengers (maybe not the BEST movie, but I would argue the most entertaining)
Guardians of the Galaxy 1

I'm very curious to see how Marvel Studios navigates into the next phase, as some of the original actors decide they're done. Can Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Dr. Strange serve as the faces of the franchise post-Avengers 4?? I dunno. That's some big shoes to fill.

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13 Dec 2017 15:56 #259047 by Shellhead
Now that Disney and Fox seem likely to close a deal involving the Marvel mutants, I'm guessing that the next phase of the MCU will be energized by the buildup to a major AvX storyline. (Avengers vs X-Men). But's it so hard to picture better casting choices for the major Marvel characters, even as the current actors age out of the roles.

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13 Dec 2017 16:24 #259048 by Black Barney
omg i've had it with these movies and we're going to get way more of them it sounds like :(
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13 Dec 2017 16:39 #259049 by Gregarius

Black Barney wrote: omg i've had it with these movies and we're going to get way more of them it sounds like :(

To borrow from Demolition Man: "In the future, all movies are Marvel superheroes."
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13 Dec 2017 16:42 #259050 by Joebot

Black Barney wrote: omg i've had it with these movies and we're going to get way more of them it sounds like :(


Kevin Feige from Marvel Studios said recently they have 20 movies plotted out beyond Avengers 4. So yeah, they're not going anywhere. I mostly enjoy the MCU movies though, so I don't perceive that as a problem.

I do think it's interesting though, that Marvel has kind of created their own genre. They're not just "superhero movies" or even "comic book movies." They're "Marvel movies," with their own specific genre conventions and expectations. Kind of like how "Star Wars" is its own genre now too.
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13 Dec 2017 17:27 #259053 by Michael Barnes
It is hard to believe we are almost TEN YEARS into the MCU. But look back on that, and regardless of the up and down quality of the films and the up and down level of interest we've all got in these...it's really pretty remarkable that this has become such a significant part of the cinema landscape. There is a real sense of genius here in transferring the heavily serialized, interconnected nature of the comics medium to film- this is, come to find out, what went wrong in the past with one-shot comic book movies. They didn't have this level of fidelity to the nature of comics, let alone the respect for the characters and a drive to _get it right_. One thing I absolutely can not fault the MCU for is getting characters or concepts wrong. There is no Batman with gatling guns here. They have done the right thing by treating these characters with the kind of carefully considered presentation that you see with iconic but not necessarily ubiquitous characters like Mickey Mouse or Mario.

Thinking back over it, all of this has been enabled by one critical piece that was also missing in the 80s and 90s when tentative efforts were made to do comic book films. It's TV. The success of serial (rather than purely episodic) TV shows like Lost, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos and so forth created a larger demand for persistently developing narrative. This is why there's always the hooks - as irritating as they sometimes are - to lead into the next film or to set up a story element or resolution for later. That interconnectedness simply wasn't found in films outside of a few major trilogies or franchises and even then there wasn't typical this sense of universe-building wherein the universe could support different genres and huge ensembles with completely fleshed-out storylines coming together.

It's significant when Thor, fresh out of Ragnarok and with a big tease at the end, shows up in the Infinity War trailer and meets up with the Guardians. It's huge, because it bridges those story arcs. It's just like the last page of a comics issue where there's a big reveal of an unexpected character.

It _is_ tiring, and it feels like they are just cranking these out. But there again- we're looking at something that has taken a decade to develop.

The big films, like I said are now the equivalent of AVX, House of M, Civil War, Secret Wars, etc.- the sort of superhero pageants that are really kind of the equivalent of the Universal monster mashes that were nowhere near the quality of the original Dracula/Frankenstein/Wolf Man/Mummy films.

It has been surprising that the B-list has turned out to be the such fertile ground- and so widely appreciated by mainstream audiences. Who knew GotG would be HUGE? I never imagined that. But the ability to take a risk on that was enabled by Avengers, Iron Man, and the other biggest hits. Now it is one of the biggest hits.

Joebot is correct that it is going to be a challenge for them to move past the original Avengers as they age out of the roles or lose interest in continuing with those characters. I think they've actually done well with establishing "successor" characters by elevating the B-listers like Black Panther and Doctor Strange.

I thought Cumberbatch was great as Doctor Strange. The character is an arrogant jackass that is terrible at relating to other people. It's not that much different than Sherlock, it's just not as nuanced a performance.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Moon Knight, a Blade reboot, and a REAL Fantastic Four movie set in the 1960s directed by Brad Bird.
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