F#@k H.P. Lovecraft

Not Sure wrote: I realize GG pushed some buttons with the term "right-wing". I don't really agree with that analysis at all, I just think HPL was shockingly fucking racist. Even within his time, this was an abnormal level of fear and hatred. However, the Southern Democrats at the time were busy electing Woodrow Wilson, who could give HPL a run for his money in the racism stakes. History isn't pretty. We should all leave the left/right stuff in the "thread we shall not name, because you know where to find it"

Aren't some of the folks here suggesting that his abnormal level of fear and hatred are what fueled the start of the genre. If not I'll add it as a point to consider.

Would there even be a Lovecraftian mythos if he were a well adjusted individual? Isn't the same thing making him racist (fear of the unfamiliar) giving birth to the genre (fear of the unknown/unknowable/unfathomable)? I would even put forward that FFG's (and other's) take on Arkham isn't all that connected to Lovecraft except for certain monsters/eldar signs/etc. It is more a fear of cosmic forces, and things that tap into those cosmic forces (where the unfortunate gypsy type stuff slots in).

mtagge wrote:

Not Sure wrote: I realize GG pushed some buttons with the term "right-wing". I don't really agree with that analysis at all, I just think HPL was shockingly fucking racist. Even within his time, this was an abnormal level of fear and hatred. However, the Southern Democrats at the time were busy electing Woodrow Wilson, who could give HPL a run for his money in the racism stakes. History isn't pretty. We should all leave the left/right stuff in the "thread we shall not name, because you know where to find it"

Aren't some of the folks here suggesting that his abnormal level of fear and hatred are what fueled the start of the genre. If not I'll add it as a point to consider.

Would there even be a Lovecraftian mythos if he were a well adjusted individual? Isn't the same thing making him racist (fear of the unfamiliar) giving birth to the genre (fear of the unknown/unknowable/unfathomable)? I would even put forward that FFG's (and other's) take on Arkham isn't all that connected to Lovecraft except for certain monsters/eldar signs/etc. It is more a fear of cosmic forces, and things that tap into those cosmic forces (where the unfortunate gypsy type stuff slots in).

Great questions. Edgar Allan Poe was even more messed up. And Stephen King watched his childhood friend get fatally hit by a train, though he claims that he has no memory of the incident.

Michael Barnes wrote: This is true- I’ll wait to hear about it before I completely dismiss it. If there is anyone working in games today who could actually subvert the racist subtexts And do something interesting with it...it’s her.

True. There is no way it will be obvious, but I'm sure there will be something...The way Dragonholt presents and manages its interspecies romance subplot has levels of subtlety and clever writing.

As evidenced by every population on earth, ever, tribalism is part of the human condition, outside of experiential and societal training. Racism is a natural result of this human tendency toward skepticism of the “other”, or distilled further, “unknown”.

This is the basis of religion and political structures, so again, it’s the human experience. Lovecraft took his own fears and created his own fictional religion, complete with hierarchies and framed within a time period of great social change, and was successful in taking the human condition of white hot fear of the unknown and translating it into stories which portray that fear on its own terms.

Ms. Valens can massage it any way she wishes, but at the end of the day, we’re still little more than apes staring at the sun in wonderment and the stories she bases the game on are still standing on the shoulders of a man ruled by his fears of the “other”, who was standing on the shoulders of all of the mystics, priests, shaman, and witches who propagated myths and stories which all, still, were rooted in a fear of “other” and the unknown.

You can’t sanitize Lovecraft because the mentality of fear of “other” still exists, today, even in developed, “enlightened” nations. Nor should you want to, as to do so would deny human nature.

He was a racist. He’s long dead. He wrote incredible stories. People like them. Most people wouldn’t know he’s racist unless you told them or they caught a scant few passages which indicated it. That’s the end.

The irony here is that this article erupted from a huge, utterly bald faced and unrepentant bigot who has called on people to leave the site for their non-extreme beliefs, who has castigated people as racist for simply voting one way, and who then even more ironically wrote about white males AS A GEOUP in less than kind terms, etc.

So, all in all, this thread is equal parts very interesting and intensely absurd.

We are surrounded by a civilization which has allowed me—I’ll speak for myself, here—to live as a giant fat blowhard who's major arteries have somehow not burst like a hot bike tire, which has put in my toolbox a language and a communicative method beyond that of all other civilizations who have come before me, one which has built an infrastructure designed to educate me and get me back and forth to a job that doesn't last from 6 in the morning until 8 at night, and a repressive state apparatus designed to coddle and protect me (as a white man) whenever I shit myself; if I had severe brain damage, or a terrorist's commitment to nihilistic destruction, only then, could I repeat the phrase:

SuperflyTNT wrote: but at the end of the day, we’re still little more than apes staring at the sun in wonderment

Yet that is the foundational basis for a spectacularized political ideal which stretches from Lovecraft to Trump. It is, literally (just read it) subhuman in outlook and intent. It is totally intolerable as an explanation of either structural or interpersonal racism, or as an excuse for inaction.

I remember appreciating Merchants and Marauders for having a pretty diverse cast when it came to captain options, whether merchant or pirate. On the one hand, you could look at it as continuing to represent non-European types as inappropriate for "proper" society if they were all pirate types, but given that you can play either way in the game, I thought it was just a good idea to have people of all types with the ambition to captain their own ship and lead it to fortune no matter how they chose to do it.

ubarose wrote:
I personally recommend Shirley Jackson's We Have Always Lived in the Castle and also, of course, The Haunting of Hill House

I love Shirley Jackson! I’ll add Kelly Link’s short stories to the list, along with Jeff Vandermeer’s Southern Reach Trilogy, and Nathan Ballingrud’s North American Lake Monsters (which features one of the best vampire stories I’ve ever read).

Thanks for righting the ship, uba.

Ursula K. Le Guin. I would buy a Wizard of Earth Sea game instantly.

Gorilla, 3/4 of the Earth’s population believes in a magical sky being that made everything.

Fully half of them kneels TOWARD THE SUN five times a day, and 10% of THOSE are happy to kill the other 90% because they don’t worship “properly”.

I’m not making excuses, I’m simply stating observable fact. People are tribal. The fact that you aimed right for Trump in your eloquent rebuttal is indicative. The “alt right Russian bot deplorables snowflake lefties” narrative played out on Facebook et al is more proof. People stabbing one another at football games is more proof. I mean, what the fuck is identity politics if it’s not “I am X, you are Y”?

Denying it is denying your own observations and ACTIONS.

Anyhow, enough of this bull.

I’m with Uba. I’d love to see a game based on The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, ideally an economic engine game with area control. Maybe like Alien Frontiers meets Cyclades or something.

Another cool one would be a mystery game based on Cold In July. Coop, where players have to find the location of the “studio” and being them to justice.

An game like Pandemic, but based on Andromeda Strain would be neat. Or better yet, a direct representation of containment of The Mist, but with two layers, where each player can control Groups - two survivor groups within the mist battling for supremacy in ideology, the townsfolk who are trying to survive, the military trying to contain the mist, and the aliens who are trying to take over. Totally asymmetrical. Kind of Duney.

Another cool one would be a game based on the Wool series where Silo personnel are trying to hide the reality from the inhabitants and the rebels are trying to change the system. Maybe 2P, like Twilight Struggle.

There are SO MANY possible settings for games in the sci fi/horrror/fantasy literature...let alone completely new ones that could be created for games. So yes, it is INCREDIBLY lazy to fall back on Lovecraft. All these resources, all this time spent on yet another “investigators va. Cthulhu” joint that is just about as played out as it gets.

Gene Wolfe, Philip Dick, any number of Neil Gaiman properties, John Carpenter movies, Frankenstein, Chronicles of Prydain, Castle Rock...and we get “Cthulhu: Death May Die”.

I don’t care for the skeevy aspects of Kingdom Death, but at least it’s something original. Ish.

Scythe creates an entire setting based mostly on paintings. No need to drag out HPL and pretend like “mongrels” aren’t racist.

Eternal Darkness, one of the best video games ever, is totally Lovecraftian...even going so far as to kind of create its own Mythos. But staying away from HPL.

Cave Evil is even more nihilistic and bleak than HPL but there is no race issue.

That is part of what I wanted to get across here...that we don’t NEED HPL anymore. We can move on from him. And still enjoy cosmic horror without this stupid impulse to venerate this man and remain bound to his specific characters, settings and ideas.

Anyway, since we are trying to spin this back to a positive discussion, I think it’s great that with some exceptions, most games are more inclusive than ever. It’s awesome to look through a D&D book and see characters of every gender, age, skin color, and description. WoTC is really pushing an all-in sense of inclusion. I’m seeing more and more in games a drive toward representation. And I’m seeing games that have latent racism, such as positive or ignorant depictions if colonialism, being roundly criticized. These are positive changes.

Jackwraith wrote: I remember appreciating Merchants and Marauders for having a pretty diverse cast when it came to captain options, whether merchant or pirate. On the one hand, you could look at it as continuing to represent non-European types as inappropriate for "proper" society if they were all pirate types, but given that you can play either way in the game, I thought it was just a good idea to have people of all types with the ambition to captain their own ship and lead it to fortune no matter how they chose to do it.

Fun fact: The most successful pirate captain in history was a Chinese woman.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Shih

I think that if someone decided to make PKDick based games it would be the best selling series after TTR

SuperflyTNT wrote: Fully half of them kneels TOWARD THE SUN five times a day, and 10% of THOSE are happy to kill the other 90% because they don’t worship “properly”.

Uh, toward the sun? If you're talking about muslims, they pray facing the Ka'bah in Mecca. If it's about heavenly bodies, they're more into moon than the sun.

Michael Barnes wrote: That is part of what I wanted to get across here...that we don’t NEED HPL anymore. We can move on from him. And still enjoy cosmic horror without this stupid impulse to venerate this man and remain bound to his specific characters, settings and ideas.

This is the part where you completely lose me.

Racism is bad. . .Check
Lovecraft was racist. . .Check
Cthulhu mythos began with Lovecraft. . .Check
Games like AH's and CW's theme are Cthulhu mythos. . .Check
Playing Cthulhu mythos games venerates Lovecraft and therefore racism. . . . . .uhh, not seeing it

Honestly most people who play AH (sorry I keep picking that one, it's the one in my collection) don't have a single clue who Lovecraft is. No sane person who plays a WWII game says that it venerates anything related to that war (or war in general). Playing Twilight Struggle as the Soviets doesn't mean I venerate them or their policies.

I mean I can pick up Marx and read it to better understand the flaws in capitalism without buying into the philosophy whole hog. If I pick up Atlas Shrugged (while rejecting the premise) I am not venerating Rand. I can read Mark Twain without venerating racism.

But good on you for pronouncing racism is bad. Bad on you for suggesting that people who don't agree will points 1-5 in their entirety are racist (but that you are okay with people who agree with 1-4).

When I play AH I totally don't "venerate this man and remain bound to his specific characters, settings and ideas". Might I suggest your personality falls deeper into fandom and geekdom than the average person. As you seem to be making no true scotsman statements.

(Apologies if the tone is a little harsh, no offense meant at all to anyone and I don't take offense at the suggestion that I promote racism by having Arkham Horror in my collection as I view this as a thought exercise)