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A place to talk about stuff that doesn't belong anywhere else.
RIP BGG RSP
- Matt Thrower
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08 Jun 2020 06:49 #310989
by Matt Thrower
Replied by Matt Thrower on topic RIP BGG RSP
Sadly, I think this is a casualty of the increasing polarization of politics.
I learned more about right-wing thought on RSP than anywhere else. Most of all, I learned that it makes a whole lot more sense if you approach the world from a radically different viewpoint than mine. Which isn't to say I agree with it, at all, but it did teach me to appreciate that not all folk on the right are selfish monsters. They're just people with different experiences, different priorities that lead them to make different conclusions about the world.
As a result, I made several "online friends" that I carried over into Facebook. And over the last four years, I've unfriended them all one by one as I watched their once reasonable, interesting political opinions spiral into a frothing pit of pro-Trump, anti-liberal MAGA madness.
It's very sad.
I learned more about right-wing thought on RSP than anywhere else. Most of all, I learned that it makes a whole lot more sense if you approach the world from a radically different viewpoint than mine. Which isn't to say I agree with it, at all, but it did teach me to appreciate that not all folk on the right are selfish monsters. They're just people with different experiences, different priorities that lead them to make different conclusions about the world.
As a result, I made several "online friends" that I carried over into Facebook. And over the last four years, I've unfriended them all one by one as I watched their once reasonable, interesting political opinions spiral into a frothing pit of pro-Trump, anti-liberal MAGA madness.
It's very sad.
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08 Jun 2020 07:40 #310990
by mtagge
I understand that might encourage people to act like dicks if there is no record of their poor behavior, but in those cases turn up the ban hammer.
Replied by mtagge on topic RIP BGG RSP
That's pretty much my suggestion. No posts in a week? Purge that thread. Put a noindex tag in the header of all RSP threads.Sagrilarus wrote: Octavian more or less said that having this long history is just a bad idea. But deleting it on their servers doesn't really delete it from the Internet. Frankly, I think they'd be better off rolling off anything (in RSP) that is more than 90 days old. But given the environment I think they just don't want to have it there and don't want to police it.
I understand that might encourage people to act like dicks if there is no record of their poor behavior, but in those cases turn up the ban hammer.
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08 Jun 2020 11:10 #310993
by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic RIP BGG RSP
Never been there, thankfully. Speaking as someone who has to moderate a small forum in the last few years, it sounds like a setup someone conjured up specifically to give me nightmares. An undersold thing that Dave used to talk about is the way in which having that sort of forum gives forum goers the opportunity to torpedo many topics by trolling, intentionally sending them to the "politics" forum by starting shit. You have a forum with a billion users, all you have to do is drop the chum in the water and that shit is *on.*
Let people just yell at each other and share their horrible opinions on facebook while society crumbles. FB likes it, strongly encourages it, and profits from it so at least someone is happy.
Let people just yell at each other and share their horrible opinions on facebook while society crumbles. FB likes it, strongly encourages it, and profits from it so at least someone is happy.
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08 Jun 2020 16:25 #310995
by Msample
Replied by Msample on topic RIP BGG RSP
Probably the same reason the sysop on Consimworld nuked the political discussion folders; 95% of the ( very small number ) of moderation issues came from that realm. On a site about boardgaming, it ain't worth the trouble and there are plenty of other places for people to vent their spleens on non gaming related content.
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11 Jun 2020 15:34 #311070
by fightcitymayor
Replied by fightcitymayor on topic RIP BGG RSP
It feels cowardly though.
For how many years did BGG insist that any and all religion/sex/politics posts be funneled into that RSP ghetto, but then suddenly BGG decides to fly a flag of socio-political conscience (and on the front page, no less) and now suddenly RSP has to be nuked. And, BTW, the lovely mods at BGG basically removed every single even-sorta-kinda-almost-borderline-contrary post in their recent BLM-positive missive, to the point that it's a farce to even call BGG a "public forum" anymore.
Not to mention someone posted a FB post by Eric Lang detailing his run-ins with racist Minneapolis cops (an admittedly interesting read), and not only was it permitted to be posted, and permitted to stay posted, it also garnered a bunch of thumbs and attaboys. Once again, the site-approved view proved itself to be above the site's own laws.
So now at BGG, as long as your opinion is of the site-approved variety, then apparently politics is not only not a bad thing, but there to be celebrated. Which pretty much meshes with their recent-years moderation of any opinion that deviates from the site-approved "everything is awesome" and "say something nice" mentality.
It's like a really lazy, hypocritical form of petty censorship, especially for a site that once-upon-a-time prided itself on being a truly "public forum." But it's been headed that way for years.
For how many years did BGG insist that any and all religion/sex/politics posts be funneled into that RSP ghetto, but then suddenly BGG decides to fly a flag of socio-political conscience (and on the front page, no less) and now suddenly RSP has to be nuked. And, BTW, the lovely mods at BGG basically removed every single even-sorta-kinda-almost-borderline-contrary post in their recent BLM-positive missive, to the point that it's a farce to even call BGG a "public forum" anymore.
Not to mention someone posted a FB post by Eric Lang detailing his run-ins with racist Minneapolis cops (an admittedly interesting read), and not only was it permitted to be posted, and permitted to stay posted, it also garnered a bunch of thumbs and attaboys. Once again, the site-approved view proved itself to be above the site's own laws.
So now at BGG, as long as your opinion is of the site-approved variety, then apparently politics is not only not a bad thing, but there to be celebrated. Which pretty much meshes with their recent-years moderation of any opinion that deviates from the site-approved "everything is awesome" and "say something nice" mentality.
It's like a really lazy, hypocritical form of petty censorship, especially for a site that once-upon-a-time prided itself on being a truly "public forum." But it's been headed that way for years.
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11 Jun 2020 17:15 - 11 Jun 2020 18:22 #311073
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic RIP BGG RSP
No internet forum is owned by the public, and therefore no forum is a "public forum." BGG is not owned by the public. It is private property. This forum is private property. All board game forums are private property. And we, the owners of these forums, have shirked our responsibility to the board game hobby community for too long. We are the gate-keepers of these online communities which shape the board gaming space as a whole. We have the authority and the power to say racists, sexists, and homophobic people and view points are not welcome, and that we will not allow our sites to be used as platforms for harmful speech. We have the ability to stand up for our beliefs with not just words but also with actions; through moderation, banning and blocking, we have the power to create spaces that are welcoming to the kinds of people we want to have in our online communities and in our hobby.
I can not speak for people of other identities, but being a woman board gamer is like being in an abusive relationship. You resign yourself to putting up with a whole lot of shittiness just to be in the board game space. The shittiness is so ubiquitous and so constant that it becomes normalized. A year ago I finally said NO MORE. I will not be abused anymore. I especially will not be abused on my own property. With the support, and consistent hard work of our current staff, especially Gary Sax, we have carved out a place where we can feel comfortable and rid, at least this small corner, of both the subtle, and the overt and aggressive sexist, racist and homophobic gate-keeping that for too long has defined this hobby.
TL;DR - Good job BGG. It's about time.
I can not speak for people of other identities, but being a woman board gamer is like being in an abusive relationship. You resign yourself to putting up with a whole lot of shittiness just to be in the board game space. The shittiness is so ubiquitous and so constant that it becomes normalized. A year ago I finally said NO MORE. I will not be abused anymore. I especially will not be abused on my own property. With the support, and consistent hard work of our current staff, especially Gary Sax, we have carved out a place where we can feel comfortable and rid, at least this small corner, of both the subtle, and the overt and aggressive sexist, racist and homophobic gate-keeping that for too long has defined this hobby.
TL;DR - Good job BGG. It's about time.
Last edit: 11 Jun 2020 18:22 by ubarose.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Shellhead, jeb, Gary Sax, dysjunct, allismom3, Msample, san il defanso, ThirstyMan, hotseatgames, Frohike, Gregarius, mtagge, Nodens, Greg Aleknevicus, Pugnax555, BillyBobThwarton, mc
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11 Jun 2020 19:04 - 11 Jun 2020 19:07 #311075
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic RIP BGG RSP
One step forward, two steps back.
The RSP guild is being established on BGG. "One of the new designated mods is wondering whether calling lefties "libtards" should be allowed."
The RSP guild is being established on BGG. "One of the new designated mods is wondering whether calling lefties "libtards" should be allowed."
Last edit: 11 Jun 2020 19:07 by ubarose.
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11 Jun 2020 19:41 #311076
by jay718
Replied by jay718 on topic RIP BGG RSP
Meet the new boss; same as the old boss...
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11 Jun 2020 21:43 #311079
by dysjunct
For context, the new mods are a 3-person team of RSP users who are volunteers, who are trying to hash out a fair and consistent set of rules to allow for discussion without becoming an echo chamber. Where should the lines should be? There’s consensus that personal attacks are clearly out, but are disparaging names for ideologies out too?
Criticizing final policies, sure. But this is a preliminary discussion where people are deliberately throwing out extreme hypotheticals. It’s not indicative of the guild generally.
Replied by dysjunct on topic RIP BGG RSP
ubarose wrote: One step forward, two steps back.
The RSP guild is being established on BGG. "One of the new designated mods is wondering whether calling lefties "libtards" should be allowed."
For context, the new mods are a 3-person team of RSP users who are volunteers, who are trying to hash out a fair and consistent set of rules to allow for discussion without becoming an echo chamber. Where should the lines should be? There’s consensus that personal attacks are clearly out, but are disparaging names for ideologies out too?
Criticizing final policies, sure. But this is a preliminary discussion where people are deliberately throwing out extreme hypotheticals. It’s not indicative of the guild generally.
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11 Jun 2020 22:10 - 11 Jun 2020 22:11 #311080
by Frohike
Replied by Frohike on topic RIP BGG RSP
Ugh, I just can't even. Deleting.
Last edit: 11 Jun 2020 22:11 by Frohike.
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12 Jun 2020 03:54 #311083
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic RIP BGG RSP
My point is that they aren’t asking the right questions. The questions that needs to be asked are can people say:
Confederate statues should not be removed because they represent great men and leaders.
Trans women aren’t women.
There is no such thing as marital rape.
The holocaust never happened.
Women lie about sexual assault.
COVID-19 is democratic hoax.
George Floyd is responsible for his own death because he was resisting arrest.
Because if the answer is yes to any of these, and a thousand other statements like them, then the message to BIPOC, women and LGBTQ+ people is that they are not welcome and BGG is not a safe place for them. And BGG’s statement of support for diversity is just BS.
Confederate statues should not be removed because they represent great men and leaders.
Trans women aren’t women.
There is no such thing as marital rape.
The holocaust never happened.
Women lie about sexual assault.
COVID-19 is democratic hoax.
George Floyd is responsible for his own death because he was resisting arrest.
Because if the answer is yes to any of these, and a thousand other statements like them, then the message to BIPOC, women and LGBTQ+ people is that they are not welcome and BGG is not a safe place for them. And BGG’s statement of support for diversity is just BS.
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12 Jun 2020 05:47 #311084
by mtagge
Replied by mtagge on topic RIP BGG RSP
You are totally on point ubarose. I just fail to understand at a core level how the thought, "straight, white men are superior" and arguments that derive solely from that as a principle is even remotely acceptable in polite society.
For the question of should "libtard" be allowed. While being a liberal is something that one theoretically could change and is not as bad as other slurs based on thing an individual cannot, I probably would not allow it except in edge cases. Such as a discussion about how someone using an offensive term is completely ineffective in swaying minds.
For the question of should "libtard" be allowed. While being a liberal is something that one theoretically could change and is not as bad as other slurs based on thing an individual cannot, I probably would not allow it except in edge cases. Such as a discussion about how someone using an offensive term is completely ineffective in swaying minds.
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12 Jun 2020 08:21 #311086
by fightcitymayor
I don't want aggressive dickbag racists/sexists running around online forums either, but my beef is that political topics were verboten for over a decade anywhere but the RSP ghetto, but at least that move was consistent. Now suddenly with BGG's apparent newly found political stance, THEIR speech is rendered acceptable anywhere on the site, but their overmoderation policies mean anything viewed as being not 100% on board with Dear Leader is officially verboten and modded with lovely little messages like "disruptive" and "derailing" and (I kid you not) "modded for discussing moderation." That's not a "community" I'm running to be a part of. And once upon a time on the internet, if you were there simply having an opinion or arguing in good faith, then that was the whole point of internet forums. In 2020 apparently it's okay to have an opinion... as long as it's the proper site-approved opinion, expressed in the proper site-approved manner. It's like living under Chinese rule, just with a different political bent.
So if BGG wants to have its cake and eat it too (yes, we're all aware it's a private entity) then just don't bullshit the world by allowing comments as though it actually exists to facilitate any sort of conversation. Because BGG proves that's a laughable premise by its own dissent-is-treason actions every day. That BLM post should have simply had the comments disabled, rather than literally excising every post that wasn't blowing kisses and throwing flowers at BGG's feet.
Replied by fightcitymayor on topic RIP BGG RSP
Your angle relates to content (and I don't necessarily disagree with you in that regard), but mine is about process.ubarose wrote: TL;DR - Good job BGG. It's about time.
I don't want aggressive dickbag racists/sexists running around online forums either, but my beef is that political topics were verboten for over a decade anywhere but the RSP ghetto, but at least that move was consistent. Now suddenly with BGG's apparent newly found political stance, THEIR speech is rendered acceptable anywhere on the site, but their overmoderation policies mean anything viewed as being not 100% on board with Dear Leader is officially verboten and modded with lovely little messages like "disruptive" and "derailing" and (I kid you not) "modded for discussing moderation." That's not a "community" I'm running to be a part of. And once upon a time on the internet, if you were there simply having an opinion or arguing in good faith, then that was the whole point of internet forums. In 2020 apparently it's okay to have an opinion... as long as it's the proper site-approved opinion, expressed in the proper site-approved manner. It's like living under Chinese rule, just with a different political bent.
So if BGG wants to have its cake and eat it too (yes, we're all aware it's a private entity) then just don't bullshit the world by allowing comments as though it actually exists to facilitate any sort of conversation. Because BGG proves that's a laughable premise by its own dissent-is-treason actions every day. That BLM post should have simply had the comments disabled, rather than literally excising every post that wasn't blowing kisses and throwing flowers at BGG's feet.
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12 Jun 2020 09:03 #311087
by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic RIP BGG RSP
As someone who has spent 5 minutes on BGG before, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go there for a discussion of anything.
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12 Jun 2020 09:11 #311088
by Sagrilarus
It is their site after all, so they get to set the rules. And straight up, one of the guys that left the site in protest and really stirred up the wargaming part of its audience did so because of the moderators' stance on causes of the Civil War and (more importantly) the atomic bombing of Japan. He disagreed with the site's stance, in the case of the former being presented as settled history. So yeah, each site has its own perspective whether they want to or not.
There's also the issue every web site owner is dealing with -- how do we do this in bulk, at speed? They want tools like "libtard" to allow for the automation of review and censorship. As it stands right now Reddit has temporary stops put in on a lot of MtG threads, with a message saying, "we'll reopen this thread when the moderators have caught up on their work."
I'll admit that I spent the majority of my time in the P part of RSP. And I'd wager my thread selection didn't drop into the depths available in that part of the site. But given the current environment, particularly in the gaming community I can see where they would decide to jettison it. I can't imagine any lawyer suggesting anything other than pulling the lever on the whole damn thing.
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic RIP BGG RSP
THEIR speech is rendered acceptable anywhere on the site, but their overmoderation policies mean anything viewed as being not 100% on board with Dear Leader is officially verboten and modded with lovely little messages like "disruptive" and "derailing" and (I kid you not) "modded for discussing moderation."
It is their site after all, so they get to set the rules. And straight up, one of the guys that left the site in protest and really stirred up the wargaming part of its audience did so because of the moderators' stance on causes of the Civil War and (more importantly) the atomic bombing of Japan. He disagreed with the site's stance, in the case of the former being presented as settled history. So yeah, each site has its own perspective whether they want to or not.
There's also the issue every web site owner is dealing with -- how do we do this in bulk, at speed? They want tools like "libtard" to allow for the automation of review and censorship. As it stands right now Reddit has temporary stops put in on a lot of MtG threads, with a message saying, "we'll reopen this thread when the moderators have caught up on their work."
I'll admit that I spent the majority of my time in the P part of RSP. And I'd wager my thread selection didn't drop into the depths available in that part of the site. But given the current environment, particularly in the gaming community I can see where they would decide to jettison it. I can't imagine any lawyer suggesting anything other than pulling the lever on the whole damn thing.
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