Rogue One (with SPOILERS)

Better characters, dialogue, cinematography, pacing, energy, FX...
TFA > RO.

I agree with Barney that you might like Rogue One better, but it ain't better.

To suggest that TFA is in any way a badly or poorly made film is ridiculous. It just is not the case. And it is much more tightly scripted, the characters are better written, and the editing in particular is much stronger. I think it is very much a preference thing, neither is necessarily better than the other. R1 does some new and different stuff, takes chances, and doesn't always succeed. TFA is extremely safe, meticulous and measured and always succeeds if only because it's not risky.

There are some great flourishes to the writing like Black Barney pointed out- there was never three scenes I expected- one was the typical "men on a mission" thing where the team sort of introduces themselves and their specializations. Then the friction scene where the team doesn't get along, egos clash, et cetera. And then the "Team, this is a suicide mission and you're all gonna die. Audience, we just thought you should know this up front." speech from a CO.

I did really like that they were sort of just a bunch of folks that got thrown together, almost ne'er-do-wells, and they go to Rebel command and they veto their suggestion. So they're like "fuck it, we're gonna do it anyway." I thought that was pretty awesome. It was never some high level Rebel mission like I expected it to be, it literally was just a ragtag group that nobody had any faith in or expectations of.

Which...I think...actually shows that Guardians of the Galaxy had some influence on this screenplay. This is obviously a more serious and somber film, but I think you can see it there.

But the writing in the first act was, IMO, actively _bad_. It felt like there were story beats and connections that were either too unclear or just missing. I actually think it should have been about 15 minutes longer and it was already pretty long, but in that 15 minutes we could have had more character detail especially about Jyn and her checkered past.

I would not be surprised to see an extended version of this one, and I would in fact welcome it. It's obvious there were quite a few scenes that we saw in the trailers that were cut or altered.

Yeah like where was that TIE fighter challenging her while she's going to realign the dish?! That was an iconic shot of the trailers and it never happened. Or where was the questioning from Mon Mothra at Rebel Command on her past? Most of that seemed cut.

These aren't complaints necessarily, the movie was a little long, but I'd like to see those scenes at some point.

I don't like TFA. It is competently shot and has good intentions behind it. On some meta-level it is a good movie - not a Star Wars movie though, but a film about Star Wars fandom. I wouldn't say R1 is a better movie, because R1 just came out, and it's not a train-wreck, so we're pretty psyched by it. We'll see about the lasting appeal and cracks in the seams in time.

What is really surprising is that R1 has a much stronger 3rd act than 1st and 2nd. Every writer, filmmaker, editor or teacher I've known would tell me that in 99% it is opposite - 3rd act is usually where most of editing and re-writing work takes place. I was very disappointed by how they handled Forrest Whitaker. Yeah, they're aiming at Heart of Darkness kind of thing, like Barney said, and there's a lot of creepy build-up in that direction, but then it all ends with a giant explosion? Very silly.

That Vader slasher scene in the airlock... it was great and blundered me completely. Like, I've just seen every named character die, and I'm treated to this slaughter of nameless grunts for an epilogue, and yet I admire their courage and suffer more for them than the movie's boy&girl (at least they dies kind of poetically on a beach, not sliced by a super-powered maniac in a dimly lit airlock).

As for fan service, it was not as on the nose as TFA. It was basically details that re-affirm that the movie is taking place in the same universe and the same time-line, not stuff like "wouldn't it be cool to see Chewbacca shoot his bow? How cool it would be if Han did it?", etc. Stuff like Vader living in Mordor, R2D2 and C3PO cameo and CGI ghosts from Polar Express I could do without.

Another thought: Death Star becomes a character in itself, not a a Macguffin. You really feel the threat and the need for it to be eliminated so that Rebellion could stand a chance. The stakes are and feel high which is... wait a minute, just the opposite of TFA? And don't even get me started on the space battle.
This is the first time I got excited about a space battle since the Return of the Jedi. Like glued to it with a dumb smile on my face. I didn't give a fuck about the raid on Starkiller's base (if that's the name) even the first time I watched it.

As a movie, I like TFA, but I do like the last part of R1 better than the whole of TFA, even when I think it's bullshit when people say it's war movie. Not enough military tactics, thrown dirt, etc... they even had a scene where they arrive in front of a building with--wait for it!--waist high crates!

Interestingly enough, I watched both movie when I was very tired (TFA at the end of a company gathering and R1 after driving 4 hours back and forth to the nearest IKEA with the missus). TFA gripped me from the start to end. R1 almost made me sleep. If not for the tiny gems & references...

But the last part? Yeah, it's Star Wars porn. And, I think, like porn, I like it, but not in the way I grok TFA.

Vlad wrote:
That Vader slasher scene in the airlock... it was great and blundered me completely. Like, I've just seen every named character die, and I'm treated to this slaughter of nameless grunts for an epilogue, and yet I admire their courage and suffer more for them than the movie's boy&girl (at least they dies kind of poetically on a beach, not sliced by a super-powered maniac in a dimly lit airlock).

can we talk about this bolded part for a bit guys? I really feel like this scene was insanely huge for this movie in terms of building momentum for an epic finish. It was completely unexpected and I really felt like my heart was breaking and exploding at the same time. (and the death of the droid earlier i found really tragic and glorious, so it's something when the heroes of this movie FEEL like they were the droid and these doomed rebel troopers who we grew to love from the very first scene of A New Hope.)

My g/f had trouble with this scene of the airlock defense of Tantive IV in Rogue One. She couldn't understand why the troopers were so stupid to not figure out that they just had to give the death star plans through the ajar door/airlock, but instead they kept banging on the door. Here's what I explained to her and why this scene really hit me:

Those rebel troopers aren't heroes in the way many other characters are in this movie (and this franchise in general). Their primary focus isn't to throw their lives away to get these death star plans where they need to be. They have no idea what those plans really are or what they represent. These are men with families waiting for them somewhere and they're fighting the good fight for them. But these aren't the types that gladly accept or volunteer for suicide missions, or stand bravely on a beach as hot death approaches. These guys were banging on the door because they were trying to survive and get the HELL out of there from whatever the heck that thing in black is that just killed a bunch of their buddies like one would swat away mynocks. Only when the guy realizes the door/airlock can't be opened that he bravely puts the focus on passing the death star plans through the door and accepting in that moment that he is about to be killed.

Those rebel troopers became amazing heroes to both the rebellion and the galaxy in that moment. I found their loss to be really impactful and gave an immense weight to not only the end of this movie but the very beginning of A New Hope where these troopers are still reeling from what happened ten minutes earlier to those guys I used to beat at Dejarik.

i love this movie. No wonder critics didn't give it full aces, how could they possibly appreciate the depth of moments like that if you don't eat, drink and breathe star wars like some of us did?

As awesome as the Vader slashing scene was, TFA still outdid it with something similar but more original, amusing and character defining, when Kylo does his lightsaber tantrums.

#TFA>RO

RO > all of the rest of the Star Wars movies.

Dark Helmet is a more competent bad guy than Kylo Ren. That tantrum stuff detracted severely from his character and in no way would someone that uncontrolled be put in command of anything.

How can you think Kylo Ren's tantrum Saber scene (done for comedic effect and some sort of weird statement that the Dark side breeds for undisciplined children) is better than Vader at the height of his ability totally cleaning house and ruining the lives of those troopers? Also, it's pretty damn scary.

Jake is right, the tantrum solidifies the fact that Ren is a very weak villian and is no Vader.

Okay, so I thought I'd explain my thoughts a bit.

I went with the kid and the SO. He's 6, and was very ancy throughout the first half of the movie. He must have known it was crap. So I missed A LOT as we kept reminding him to sit down and be quiet, and its faults weren't as glaring. Luckily there weren't that many people around. The cruel irony of bringing kids to movies is that they're loud in the quiet parts and quiet in the loud parts. He perked up during the rebel ambush on Jedah, as did everyone else in the theater. It was great! The blind guy and his terminator (in the WH40K sense) friend (although I wondered why he's the only guy ever to have a repeating blaster like that) were cool. My old roommate from college who was into film and is a Taiwanese-american raised in a Colorado suburb posted on FB about how excited he was with their inclusion in the film as fairly badass action dudes. You transport that intro-to-the monk scene in a movie from the the 80s or something (like Total Recall), and they'd shrug him off as some crazy fureigner and never see him for the rest of the movie.

The kid fell asleep before the final third, and I'm glad that he did, because everyone fucking dies. That was some Shakespearean level tragedy, and pulled no punches. Vader was amazing in his brief appearances, and those guys trying to get onto the escape pods stands out... almost like a scene from a sci-fi horror movie. Those guys looked truly scared and like they were being assaulted by an otherworldly space wizard. That one scene was better than the entirety of Kylo Ren's screen time. TFA cashed in on the Gen-Xers who grew up wearing Han Solo underwear and having golden bikini wet dreams.

George Lucas created a cool setting, world, and story, but he isn't the best writer. It's no coincidence that most people think Empire is the best. But ultimately I'm glad that different stories are being told in this cool universe. I've not seen more than a few episodes of Rebels, but it was pretty damn good from what I saw. KOTOR was good, even though I didn't finish that because I can't stand BIOWARE games and their aimlessness, but that's another topic entirely. Rogue One's pacing might have been off, but I enjoyed it more than any of the other Star Wars movie offerings. I dismiss the "save it for the kids" rationale. I liked Deadpool. I liked the Matrix. I liked Blade. I liked the original X-men cartoons. People are imperfect, and it's a valuable lesson to children that you can rise from shitty situations and become a success and still eventually lead a happy and productive life. You don't have to be a Princess or a god damn Skywalker for people to care about your story or for your life to have value. If Rey is Luke's daughter or something I'm going to be really annoyed. I don't think you need to see every little nod to extended universe readers to "get" this movie. It stands on its own merits despite its Star Wars trappings, and for me, told an interesting story.

Whenever ridiculous to-advance-the-plot moments happen in the Star Wars movies, I chalk it up to fate and the invisible Force god willing the correct sequence of events into existence.

I'm an unabashed fan of tragic military films. R1 spoke to me on that level and I cared more for these characters than the TFA ones. The scene where the monk's brother/bestie starts repeating the mantra that the monk always spoke illuminated that bond of brotherhood that exists during conflict. It is a common theme in books and movies, but effective nonetheless.

Perhaps it is that overall theme of sacrifice that grabbed me in R1 that wasn't to be found in TFA. And perhaps there wasn't a place for it in TFA anyways.

I never got the feeling that any of the characters in TFA were faced with their own death. I repeatedly got that feeling in Rogue One. These guys and gals are very aware of what they're going through and what's being asked of them.

I sort of love how Rogue One sort of indirectly makes Starkiller seem kind of stupid too. The Death Star has much more limited power but for some reason is far scarier. That's not a moon you want to see rising on the horizon.

...that just reminded me of that incredible line, "there is no horizon!"

R1 not only supports ANH but Chirrut's line about the "brightest stars have hearts of Khyber" can be applied to TFA for why Starkiller Base was harvesting a sun.

Oh yeah... I also liked that no one called it a suicide mission. The worst thing about suicide missions in movies is that the protagonist always manages to survive. Here, towards the end, as more and more stuff happens you realize, "holy shit, they're all dead/gonna die." That was really impactful. The fiancée cried more at the monk dying than she did with Han Solo, and she LOVES Star Wars.