Tough read re: being a woman in the games industry

katiesgamecorner.com/2018/06/20/the-trut...ent-and-boardgaming/

I think we all sort of know that a lot of the public part of the hobby isn't open to women, but this post lays it out pretty well how hostile it is. I mean, I find stuff like cons underlined with a creepy vibe and I'm a man in my 30s who doesn't deal with the sexual harassment part of games culture.

I dunno man. I don't know where this ends for the hobby---I am less confident than ever that spaces/cultures will ever police themselves and purge this stuff. I don't think it's specific to board games but broadly nerd culture is constructed with it deep inside it. I've had this upside-down U shaped relationship between games (broadly understood) and my feelings about being into them. I had my reflexive shame about being into it in high school and college and then came back to it in my 20s (and came here, actually)... now I am not shameful about it but I'm more quiet about it than ever with others. Which isn't like helpful either.

I hesitate to bring this up here because I'm not looking to trip ideological flame war territory but I just find it pretty upsetting in the same way as gamergate, etc. From our conversations here I think most of us agree that open game nights and cons can get into weird territory.

Until people witnessing this or are subject to this start punching these people, hard, in the face, nothing will ever change.

Shame only works on those with ethics. Violence has always, and will always, be the ultimate shaper of culture.

Gary Sax wrote: I dunno man. I don't know where this ends for the hobby---I am less confident than ever that spaces/cultures will ever police themselves and purge this stuff. I don't think it's specific to board games but broadly nerd culture is constructed with it deep inside it.

It's good to bring it up. It helps spread awareness, and as it spreads, there's a chance it might change some minds.

This stuff is horrible and creepy and awful for the women who are harassed and abused, but I'm more hopeful than you about change. The fact people are talking about it is change. This has always been around but a twenty years ago women barely dared to enter this space and a few years ago, as Katie says, they simply put up with it as the necessary price to get involved.

Now it's being discussed and challenged. And although the response of a lot of people is to reveal often fairly repugnant regressive attitudes, women who call it out are also getting a lot of support. Critically, men are starting to call it out too. And in the discussion, attitudes are beginning to shift.

Someone (I forget where I read this) made an analogy to mould that I like a lot. Left in the dark it spreads and festers. But when you shine a light on it, it stops growing, and you have the chance to try and clean it up. It's heartening that some men, now, not only want to help shine a light but to do the cleaning, too.

Of course, that doesn't help the women who continue to be affected on a day to day basis. This should all stop, right now. But that's not the world we live in and it's a fight we're going to have to have.

In terms of board game and nerd culture, I feel it's really important to recognise that it's not really nerd culture that's the problem here. The problem is angry, entitled, badly socialised young men. There just so happens that nerd culture holds a lot of appeal for that demographic.

The reason it's important to make this distinction is that while nerd culture needs to be part of the fight, this is a much, much wider problem. It has its nasty claws in sport and gang culture too, in domestic violence, in workplace discrimination. The solution to this has to be at the absolute grassroots. Personally, I favour making it part of the school curriculum. From a young age, children are taught about citizenship and rightly so. Why not make good socialisation and gender equality a part of that? Why not make enthusiastic consent and harassment a part of sex education? Clearly, we can't rely on fathers to teach this to their sons, so there has to be a public element in tackling it.

And, of course, the requisite debate thread on BGG about this event, full of people saying "Hey. This happened." and the usual responses of "Unless you have evidence and witnesses, it can't have happened."

boardgamegeek.com/thread/2010910/sexual-...ins-game-fair/page/1

I'm not surprised in the least that the neanderthals on TOS are not seeing things clearly.

Gary, this story is everywhere, so certainly don't feel bad about bringing it up here. As mentioned, this kind of thing has to be shouted from the rooftops. This kind of behavior has to stop, and the more that people think it won't be glossed over, maybe they will think twice before harassing people. I'd really like to believe that.

Guys, if you ever see shit like this, don't just laugh it off.

(edited for repost. Nothing to see here)

ubarose wrote: BGG is blocked at my work. Is the Origins sexual harassment thread about the incident with Marc and his getting banned from BGGcon?

It's about Marc, yes, but mostly about what happened (But can you PROVE it?! With video?!) at Origins. Octavian does step in at one point and mention that he has been banned from the upcoming BGG.con.

Harassers are a blight on our hobby. The sooner they're ostracized the better.

I really wish that Katie felt she was in a position to name names, but for whatever reasons that are not my business she feels that she shouldn’t.

I firmly believe that these scumbags need to be dragged out and cast in the harshest spotlight possible. We need their names, and yes, I absolutely think that their wives and families need to know and are not “protected” by keeping their names private. They need to have everything taken from them and their lives destroyed provided the outing is credible.

It’s such a huge problem that MEN think that women that come forward with this are somehow untrustworthy, looking for revenge, trying to make money (WTF?), engaging in “female hysterics” or whatever...all of that is so outrageously sexist in itself.

I have to say that when I hear a woman talk about things like this, I am inclined to believe them 100% because I’ve witnessed it, I’ve been around guys that have done it, and I know how shitbag dick-waggling men are. And I don’t see ANY personal benefit for a woman to come forward with this- it’s painful, embarrassing, and personal. How dare a fucking man say “where is the video evidence”...

A big part of the problem is that when men get together and are the majority they adopt this mentality that they can do whatever they want without censure, that sexual harassment is “harmless” and that women can be treated disrespectfully So you go to con, and these disgusting shits like this Marc guy (never buy a Vile Genius game, BTW) feel empowered to do whatever they want to women. When these men are mostly white, sexless losers ranging from teenagers to middle age it just exacerbated the situation.

If you see something, kick it in the balls until it is coughing blood. It’s time for hobby gaming to have its #metoo reckoning. I want to know who is doing this, and if they are industry people I want to watch their downfall.

I mean, I have to watch what my six year old daughter is wearing when we go to the game shop or to a convention because I’ve seen guys staring at her. Every year we go to Dragon Con, my wife has somebody touch her or speak to her inappropriately. She’s had cellphone cameras stuck under her dress on escalators. She’s had men press up against her in elevators. She’s been invited into hotel rooms. Billy fucking Mitchell propositioned her.

I think young girls in particular need to be aware that conventions are HOSTILE environments.

Michael Barnes wrote: I think young girls in particular need to be aware that conventions are HOSTILE environments.

Ewww. I'm guessing the Auto Show doesn't have the same issue!

I was about to engage in whataboutism, thinking that sporting events are just as prone to being male dominated and places of poor behavior. I wouldn't want to leave my wife alone with a bunch of football hooligans in Moscow. Especially with all of the fallout in Hollywood with the #metoo stuff, it would seem that other places are bad too... but that doesn't excuse it. I definitely think there's a larger problem in the United States at some confluence of the ubiquity of porn and how rarely dudes actually talk about sex in a meaningful way with peers and mentors. Add in a dose of social awkwardness and celibacy, and things get ugly.

I'm lucky that the game group at my shop is led by a woman. I think seeing her name on the meetup page and seeing her enjoy 2+ hour games helps break the ice. We're still under 50% female participation most weeks though. Still pretty white though. Our TCG groups have more Asians and Latinos, but are again even more male-dominated.

There are still convicted sex offenders in Illinois that run or have recently run stores and it disgusts me. Even after they're outed, close friends (who must have known about the behavior) are still running shops. I've got some gaming acquaintances that post lots of anime/waifu stuff to FB, and I gotta wonder what they do when no one's looking.

Michael Barnes wrote: I really wish that Katie felt she was in a position to name names, but for whatever reasons that are not my business she feels that she shouldn’t.

Increased harassment or other forms of reprisal, I'm guessing.

MattDP wrote: The reason it's important to make this distinction is that while nerd culture needs to be part of the fight, this is a much, much wider problem. It has its nasty claws in sport and gang culture too, in domestic violence, in workplace discrimination. The solution to this has to be at the absolute grassroots. Personally, I favour making it part of the school curriculum. From a young age, children are taught about citizenship and rightly so. Why not make good socialisation and gender equality a part of that? Why not make enthusiastic consent and harassment a part of sex education? Clearly, we can't rely on fathers to teach this to their sons, so there has to be a public element in tackling it.

I think there's already some northern European or Scandinavian country that does this. I forget... maybe Denmark or Holland. Saw something about it on FB. In any case, they have really low teen pregnancy rates, abortions, and high sexual satisfaction on both genders according to studies. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening in the United States any time soon. We'd much rather reward "players" and shame the sluts and pedos.

I also think we already ask too much of our teachers and police officers.


In addition to calling out poor behavior, I think it's good to call out good behavior. Loter has been pretty active lately in trying to figure out wth is up with all the Sarkeesian hate with her speaking on a panel at GenCon, and my old friends at Plaid Hat work pretty hard to be inclusive and minimize the sexualization in the representation of their female characters. The interest in Ashes, Dead of Winter, Mice and Mystics, Stuffed Fables, etc... has been pretty even. One way to make these spaces more welcoming to women is to continue to make games more appealing to them in general. But Katie should be able to play Wargames without 45 -year-old troglodytes assuming she wants a shipment of the D.

SuperflyTNT wrote: Until people witnessing this or are subject to this start punching these people, hard, in the face, nothing will ever change.

Shame only works on those with ethics. Violence has always, and will always, be the ultimate shaper of culture.

I agree to an extent. Fearing physical violence might just make these guys try harder not to get caught. We need to find ways to prevent their crepitude in the first place.

MattDP wrote: In terms of board game and nerd culture, I feel it's really important to recognise that it's not really nerd culture that's the problem here. The problem is angry, entitled, badly socialised young men. There just so happens that nerd culture holds a lot of appeal for that demographic.

You make some great points and I agree with a lot of what you're saying in your post, but I disagree with you here. I think there are problems with misogyny that are specific to nerd culture and deeply embedded within it. I feel like the lion's share of nerd content (and gaming content in particular) is made by white men, for white men. And when you have a culture largely centered on commodities, the audience for these commodities is going to determine the community you create. And I think, without necessarily meaning to, the gaming community, well-intentioned though it may be (for the most part), has created the conditions for these sorts of toxic attitudes to form. The community is too narrow, exclusive, and insular to be properly critical of itself.

I mean, let's look here. What percentage of regular users here are white men? And what are we missing out on because of that? I don't think it's anyone's fault, but it's a thing to think about, especially as the site is rebranding itself and trying to draw in a broader audience. What kind of content do we want to cover? What kind of content do we want to promote? Who gets to be involved in that process? And how will these decisions change what kind of content gets made and community gets formed in the future?

All this to say, I think this will remain a problem in the gaming community until we change the composition of the gaming community. While we can't necessarily address the problems of sexism and misogyny in society at large, I do think we have power in our small little corner of it. This is our house--it's our job to clean it.

SuperflyTNT wrote: Until people witnessing this or are subject to this start punching these people, hard, in the face, nothing will ever change.

I disagree. I don't think you can solve the problem of unchecked, out-of-control masculinity with more unchecked, out-of-control masculinity.