Does War of the Ring make sense? (thematically)

I'm currently trying to get rid of my copy of Titan and also trying to acquire a copy of War of the Ring.

I've pinpointed what it is that turns me off on games (aside from them being dry tasteless eurogames) and it's when they don't make sense thematically. That's the reason I'm getting rid of Titan afterall. The battles on the battleboards are kickass, but the masterboard is a nightmare. I mean, why can't I move to this hex? For balance? What is this, some sort of eurogame? It would have worked for me if they had put like a giant impassable mountain range or a thick forest of cactus as the reason why I can't pass through and that would've been fine. This abstract square, circle, triangle and triple triangle nonsense gets on my nerves.

Same with Descent. I hate it when the heroes open the chest and everyone magically gets items in their packs. Whut. How did I get items when you opened the chest? Magical imps of balance? Meh. Sympathizer in BSG? Horrid.

So my question is, are there bits of WotR that don't make sense from a thematic point of view? I've read countless reviews and discussions on WotR and I've gathered that it's the best 2 player game in the world (and works as a decent 3 player game -- WOW! and a sub-par 4 player game) and that it feels like the movies/books. I shan't be bothered to learn the game and play it several times only to find out that there's something that'll get to me hidden somewhere within it's massive piles of rules.

Long rules are ok. Unthematic balancing mechanisms? No thanks.

There was an article written about the geography of titan long before I started playing the game... basically describes the masterboard as a volcanic island, with river valleys snaking through around the volcano and surrounded by a beach-like outer chain or some sort of thing. It still doesn't make a lot of thematic sense but the masterboard has to be abstracted to some degree or the game goes a little bananas. Plus, its a game about gangs of unrelated fantasy monsters fighting each other. It is my favorite game, but I don't think anyone is going to tell you the theme makes sense unless they are high. I have played the "no movement restriction" variant and its a fun way to waste an hour but doesn't have much replayability.

WoTR has a little of the same with the action dice. Why can't I attack? I didn't roll enough attack icons? WTF? You are rarely restricted because you roll several dice and most of the time one of them will come up with the face you need, BUT when you do get dice screwed in WoTR it really really hurts.

That's the reason I'm getting rid of Titan afterall. The battles on the battleboards are kickass, but the masterboard is a nightmare. I mean, why can't I move to this hex? For balance? What is this, some sort of eurogame?

Wait... what? Titan is too balanced and euro-y for you? Damn, dude, that's hardcore.

Same with Descent. I hate it when the heroes open the chest and everyone magically gets items in their packs. Whut. How did I get items when you opened the chest? Magical imps of balance? Meh. Sympathizer in BSG? Horrid.

If that's enough to turn you off to a game, it looks like you'll have to start playing wargames. Get a big table, some time off, and get used to playing with, er, by yourself.

I haven't played WotR in a year or two, so I can't remember the game too vividly. I remember the special characters being kinda' "gamey." I don't know if you'd consider this a balancing mechanism, but you can't do anything with your armies unless you roll the proper abstract symbols on some dice.

Hmm. No, no. I love BSG and Descent. I was just giving examples of little things that annoy me in the games.

I don't think I'll ever be a wargamer. The counters turn me off.

I don't think the action dice are unthematic; they introduce a possibility that you can't do exactly what you want to on your turn. Maybe the armies you wanted to move are stuck for some reason, or they didn't get the message that they need to attack or go somewhere. Suaron's orcs may drag their feet at times to do what they're told. The dice also allow for the fact that nations are stubborn sometimes and just won't budge, and you always recruit new people whenever you want to.

Many CDG do the same thing, but with cards.

Why does the sympathizer annoy you in BSG? I haven't played the game, but I have seen the show and thematically it makes sense. There are several characters who are in love with cylons and therefore sympathize with them.

I'd say one of the biggest thematic "issues" if you want to call it that with War of the Ring is the idea that a Free People's military victory is possible. Depending on your take on the books you may or may not think this was possible. Personally, I don't think it's an issue at all really. If you look at what happened the last time Sauron got the Ring of Power- basically the Free People scored a military victory and took it away.

metalface13 wrote:

Why does the sympathizer annoy you in BSG? I haven't played the game, but I have seen the show and thematically it makes sense. There are several characters who are in love with cylons and therefore sympathize with them.

It doesn't feel right. The mechanics for it feel forced. What it does is if in the middle of the game, the humans are leading, suddenly one of them turns out to be a Cylon sympathizer. For no reason other than the fact that the humans are leading.

dan daly wrote:

I'd say one of the biggest thematic "issues" if you want to call it that with War of the Ring is the idea that a Free People's military victory is possible. Depending on your take on the books you may or may not think this was possible. Personally, I don't think it's an issue at all really. If you look at what happened the last time Sauron got the Ring of Power- basically the Free People scored a military victory and took it away.

Ahh. I don't think that was an issue. What I meant when it doesn't make sense is if it exists purely for balancing, or whatnot.

metalface13 wrote:

Why does the sympathizer annoy you in BSG? I haven't played the game, but I have seen the show and thematically it makes sense. There are several characters who are in love with cylons and therefore sympathize with them.

The sympathizer feels very game-y to me. I hate the fact that it is pretty easy to game the system to run one dial down to ensure that the sympathizer stays human.

I understand that this does help the cylon some, as it puts a resource dial that much closer to depletion, but the Admiral or President saying "Well, we really need to lose 3 more population to make sure the sympathizer sides with us" completely jerks me out of the BSG atmosphere.

yeah the sympathizer is totally unthematic. Leaders would never intentionally downplay strengths or even self-sabotage to gain supporters amongst those on the fence, especially during war.

Spinrad wrote:

The sympathizer feels very game-y to me. I hate the fact that it is pretty easy to game the system to run one dial down to ensure that the sympathizer stays human.

I understand that this does help the cylon some, as it puts a resource dial that much closer to depletion, but the Admiral or President saying "Well, we really need to lose 3 more population to make sure the sympathizer sides with us" completely jerks me out of the BSG atmosphere.

Maybe you could house-rule it as a die-roll... when the Sympathizer shows up, roll a d8. If it's higher than the lowest dial value, then the Sympathizer doesn't play for the Cylons. If it's lower or equal to the lowest dial value, the Sympathizer does join the Cylon side. That uncertainty will make the Humans think twice about running down a dial on purpose.

kookoobah wrote:

metalface13 wrote:

Why does the sympathizer annoy you in BSG? I haven't played the game, but I have seen the show and thematically it makes sense. There are several characters who are in love with cylons and therefore sympathize with them.

It doesn't feel right. The mechanics for it feel forced. What it does is if in the middle of the game, the humans are leading, suddenly one of them turns out to be a Cylon sympathizer. For no reason other than the fact that the humans are leading.

Ah, ok. Like I said I haven't played the game so I didn't know how the sympathizer worked.

kookoobah wrote:

I shan't be bothered to learn the game and play it several times only to find out that there's something that'll get to me hidden somewhere within it's massive piles of rules.

Long rules are ok. Unthematic balancing mechanisms? No thanks.

Well, good luck finding any game that doesn't have some element of gameplay that is just there to help the "game" aspect. If WOTR gets most of it to work with the theme, then that's pretty darn good compared to most games.

And you can't say "I shan't be bothered" where it sounds like you really meant it to sound that snooty. :oP

Shellhead wrote:

Spinrad wrote:

The sympathizer feels very game-y to me. I hate the fact that it is pretty easy to game the system to run one dial down to ensure that the sympathizer stays human.

I understand that this does help the cylon some, as it puts a resource dial that much closer to depletion, but the Admiral or President saying "Well, we really need to lose 3 more population to make sure the sympathizer sides with us" completely jerks me out of the BSG atmosphere.

Maybe you could house-rule it as a die-roll... when the Sympathizer shows up, roll a d8. If it's higher than the lowest dial value, then the Sympathizer doesn't play for the Cylons. If it's lower or equal to the lowest dial value, the Sympathizer does join the Cylon side. That uncertainty will make the Humans think twice about running down a dial on purpose.

Good idea - how about a slight adjustment, the roll only happens if a dial is in the red. That way the sympathiser is still a cylon when the resources are black but there's a chance they may still be a cylon even when a resource is red.
Apols if I've been a bit slow and that is what you originally suggested.

Leaders would never intentionally downplay strengths or even self-sabotage to gain supporters amongst those on the fence, especially during war.

Well, that's not the game being unthematic, that's you being unthematic. The sympathizer is a little abstract, since it could transform you into a Cylon somehow, but other than that it makes sense.

And, we're talking about the BSG crew here, they're not exactly the brightest bunch.