Twilight Imperium - My Mount Everest

I've really enjoyed F:AT for the past few months, and it's inspired me to purchase some more Ameritrash titles myself. It's inspired me to buy Cosmic Encounter, which I have enjoyed immensely, and even though I'm still mostly a Eurogamer, I've developed a taste for the more thematic, ultra-fancy looking presentations.

I've been really interested in trying/buying Twilight Imperium 3rd. Ed., and I'm a little torn. I'm completely into the theme, but I am curious as to the length of the game itself. The box says 4 hrs., but that seems like a very conservative estimate. Most people give a playtime closer to 6-8 hrs.

What do people find to be the average length of TI3, with or without the Shattered Empire expansion?

It's a vexed question.

The play time depends heavily on what optional rules you play - and this is true of Shattered Empire just as much as it is of the base game. Some shorten play time, others lengthen it. Some can do either depending on the play style of your group.

Having at least one experienced player at the table to keep things ticking along and to answer rules questions helps immensely. I have played several face-to-face games of this with complete newbies which ran around 60 minutes per player not including set up time. That's about as short as the game as written is likely to get - but it's a realistic goal to aim for. You can make the game shorter though by the simple expedient of playing to less victory points. Playing to 7 or 8 instead of 10 will shave some time off the game and should still be enough to give you much of what's engaging about the TI3 experience.

My tips for playing the shortest game possible:
* Set up beforehand using a pre-set galaxy from the FFG website.
* If possible, make sure everyone has read the rules.
* If you don't own shattered empires then download the rules. Mock up some artifact tokens and use those rules in your game - it can seriously shorten the play time.
* The choice of Imperial cards is tricky. The original Imperial card will speed up the game no end but can be strategically unsatisfying since it makes a win based purely on luck of turn order possible. Imperial II from the expansion is better, but not as fast. Don't for the love of god, use Bureaucracy if you want a quick(ish) game.
* You're probably best off trying to mock up and use Diplomacy II instead of the Diplomacy from the base game. Other strategy card swaps won't make much difference to play time.
* Take the Yssaril out of the available races. Their passing ability can seriously slow the game down.
* Allow players to sort out the results of any build action after their turn has finished. Strictly speaking this is illegal as they can change what they might build depending on what they see happening, but it won't make a lot of difference strategically and it speeds things up a lot.
* Think about using the "Ancient Empires" rules of public objectives. This can be a mixed bag. I find it helps speed up the game because it means everyone can see the goals in advance and so speeds acquisition of victory points. Other people have found that it slows things down because people spend time min/maxing and plotting elaborate strategies. I guess it depends how AP-prone your players are.
* Don't use ANY OTHER optional rules. This includes simulated early turns which doesn't shave much off game time (especially so if you're using Diplomacy II), stops new players having a couple of easy turns to get into the swing of things and actually requires people to learn more rules.

This became ... longer than expected.

Hope it helps, although Malloc will no doubt be along shortly to tell me I'm wrong in every department

Did you know you can do TI3 PBEM? It takes an awfully long time though.

I did know about PBEM, but that holds very little appeal for me. I much prefer face to face plays (the same reason I only use BSW to play Dominion).

Category recommendation! A HOWTO section for things exactly like what Matt's posting here. Make nice robust posts with links to files, pix, etc. Aarontu's STARCRAFT Map for Two would be a good one, Skelly's RUNEBOUND primer springs to mind. If the Recommendation comments area was more edit tolerant, I would recommend it there, I guess.

Thanks, Matt!

MattDP wrote:

Did you know you can do TI3 PBEM? It takes an awfully long time though.

Any chance of getting one of those going around these parts sometime soon?

sanildefanso wrote:

I've really enjoyed F:AT for the past few months, and it's inspired me to purchase some more Ameritrash titles myself. It's inspired me to buy Cosmic Encounter, which I have enjoyed immensely, and even though I'm still mostly a Eurogamer, I've developed a taste for the more thematic, ultra-fancy looking presentations.

I've been really interested in trying/buying Twilight Imperium 3rd. Ed., and I'm a little torn. I'm completely into the theme, but I am curious as to the length of the game itself. The box says 4 hrs., but that seems like a very conservative estimate. Most people give a playtime closer to 6-8 hrs.

What do people find to be the average length of TI3, with or without the Shattered Empire expansion?

4 players is only REMOTELY possible if everyone playing is a pro.
Maybe try Starcraft if you are after something shorter?

CE -> TI3 is a big leap.

When I first got the game, I made sure I knew the rules inside and out. I then had 3-4 player games with people who were only casual gamers. After explaining the rules, games usually lasted 4 to 5 hours. If you know the rules well, you can help the game move along at a good rate.

The length of the game really depends on what optional rules you're using, how many people are playing, and if any one of the people is the kind to sit there and take forever to do every simple thing.

While my 3 and 4 player games with casual gamers who were new to TI3 only took 4 or 5 hours, a more recent game I played was an 8 player game with most of the optional rules. Most of the players were pros at the game and it was still an 11 hour affair.

CE -> TI3 is a big leap.

No kidding. I know that the complexity is way up there, but that's not really my concern. It's just a game after all. I'm more worried about playtime, as I tend to get antsy after about the four-hour mark. It would seem that TI3 has to have the planets allign to accomplish that.

Thanks for the help!

Mr Skeletor wrote:

4 players is only REMOTELY possible if everyone playing is a pro.
Maybe try Starcraft if you are after something shorter?

CE -> TI3 is a big leap.

Oh man, this is a red flag. You sound like one of the guys telling folks to start off with LOST CITIES because a meatier game like PUERTO RICO will just melt their fucking mind.

TI3 is a big ass game. Don't expect to finish up in 45 minutes. Read the rules and really understand them and you can personally shave about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the time off the game just by avoiding looking shit up. Break it out and "solo" it for a few turns to get the hang of the flow. Then when you actually play, you'll have a better grasp of what rules go where, and also have an idea of when things are totally out of whack.

Don't be timid, man, hop in there.

sanildefanso wrote:

CE -> TI3 is a big leap.

No kidding. I know that the complexity is way up there, but that's not really my concern. It's just a game after all. I'm more worried about playtime, as I tend to get antsy after about the four-hour mark. It would seem that TI3 has to have the planets allign to accomplish that.

It's NOT the complexity (so eat my ass Jeb) - TI3 has a lot to remember but nothing is very hard.

By leap I meant in scale. CE is really a pretty casual game. It's reletivly quick and can get up and going with new players in no time. You can pull the game out when you have a few friends over for a drink. Non-gamers should have no problem with it.
You can't do that with TI3. It's long. Rule explanation takes a while. The first game is a fumble / look up rules fest. This isn't a game for casual players. You really have to have dedicated mates who want to play the game, otherwise the game wont get played.
The fact you are worried about the time it takes says you may not have such a group.

In short CE is a game that is very easy to get on the table. TI3 is a game that very easily becomes a never played shelfwarmer. Ti3 needs a 'gamers' group, CE doesn't.

I agree with the time frame that everyone like Aarontu is giving. If you want to keep it to 4 hours it's possible. But everyone needs to know the rules, you also should keep the game to 4 players and 7 VPs.

Sanildefanso, Ti3 is my favorite game but if I were in your shoes, I would look around your area for somebody else who owns the game and see if you can try it out with them. If somebody owns and likes the game they may be looking for Ti3 players. Maybe I'm a little more open to playing games with people I don't know very well but sometimes that's a great way to meet new gamer friends. The worst that could happen is that end up a game from hell but you may also save yourself $80, you may find you love Ti3, you find a new gamer group.

KingPut wrote:

I agree with the time frame that everyone like Aarontu is giving. If you want to keep it to 4 hours it's possible. But everyone needs to know the rules, you also should keep the game to 4 players and 7 VPs.

Sanildefanso, Ti3 is my favorite game but if I were in your shoes, I would look around your area for somebody else who owns the game and see if you can try it out with them. If somebody owns and likes the game they may be looking for Ti3 players. Maybe I'm a little more open to playing games with people I don't know very well but sometimes that's a great way to meet new gamer friends. The worst that could happen is that end up a game from hell but you may also save yourself $80, you may find you love Ti3, you find a new gamer group.

QFT-

My only play of Ti3 comes from finding someone on THE BGG in my area and getting together to play some games first. Then, after we each determined the other wasnt an axe murderer, he invited me to play Twilight with a few other guys he gamed with. It was a great exposure to the game even if I have yet to find time to play with that specific group again. I'm still looking forward to the Malloc Taskmaster version at Trashfest hopefully...

jeb wrote:

Mr Skeletor wrote:

4 players is only REMOTELY possible if everyone playing is a pro.
Maybe try Starcraft if you are after something shorter?

CE -> TI3 is a big leap.

Oh man, this is a red flag. You sound like one of the guys telling folks to start off with LOST CITIES because a meatier game like PUERTO RICO will just melt their fucking mind.

TI3 is a big ass game. Don't expect to finish up in 45 minutes. Read the rules and really understand them and you can personally shave about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the time off the game just by avoiding looking shit up. Break it out and "solo" it for a few turns to get the hang of the flow. Then when you actually play, you'll have a better grasp of what rules go where, and also have an idea of when things are totally out of whack.

Don't be timid, man, hop in there.

I'm well aware that this would be the case, Jeb. I've played long complex games before, just not one on the scale of TI3. I also know that CE is HARDLY preparation for something like TI3. The CE comment was more to demonstrate the enjoyment I've gotten out of this website, not some thought that I'm suddenly ready to conquer the beast.

My main thought was the timeframe, and KingPut's comment about finding someone else who has it is well-said. I don't have more than two or three gaming buddies who would want to commit to something like this right now.