Music Industry and Legal Advice

So I know this isnt the place necessarily for solid legal advice, but I'm just trying to get a feel for something and thought the broad spectrum of the geek might be able to weigh in.

My wife's hobby is editing together home movies to music. She is seriously considering trying to go out and make money doing this. She's already done this for a Non profit children's camp for them to show potential doners. This was a few years ago and we never really thought about legality since she wasn't directly paid to do the video.

SO! What would be the legal work needed regarding the songs she'd use. If she used "Wind Beneath My Wings" for your daughter's graduation video, do we need to search out permission if we sell a video with that song in it to you?

Would it matter if we were selling a video to a company rather than an individual?

For some reason I'm thinking that if she sold it to the individual with some legal language in the contract about how they are not to make any copies and this is for personal use only, etc. that she'd be okay.

So. I know you're not all lawyers, but thoughts? opinions? any articles to back anything up?

Thanks.

I'm no lawyer, but the music industry and the associated IP crap is a money-mad bloodsucking machine. I mean, look at these TV shows that had licensed music originally...but "Ah ah ah, you didn't pay for the *DVD* rights for this music!" so these old shows get released with music missing and scenes altered or clipped because they can't use the music they already fucking paid for the first time.

In answer to your question, if you're making money, and using someone's music, you'd better believe that someone, somewhere wants a cut. I think if the music is of a certain age then its protections cease, hence why you hear a lot of old songs on shows, but I'm not certain on that. Every time copyright and IP law looks to be failing to protect the hordes o' gold, the law simply gets changed, so who knows?


Nah, I'm not bitter or anything.

Ken is right! Well said

It kind of depends on the audience...it's one of those things where you probably will never, ever get in trouble for doing it. My wife and I have done a couple of video projects where we used unlicensed music and it's never been a problem. Now, if you're going to be showing something to 1000 people, that may be an issue.

One thing I did was this stylist profile video for Vidal Sassoon...we used all kinds of unlicensed music- The Faint, Ladytron, Daft Punk...and it was fine.

A long time ago, I made this short film with some friends called GEORGE THE CLOWN...we had cut this scene with "Welcome to the Jungle" in mind and it worked _perfectly_. But since we were sending the picture to Sundance and showing it at festivals, we had to see about the rights. It was something like $20,000. The film cost about $150 to make.

I guess it depends mostly on how you're going to be using the video- if it's a fundraising thing, a wedding video, or something like that, it probably wouldn't be a problem. If it's something like a short film, music video, or other kind of material intended for a mass audience, then yes, it's a big issue.

Ken B. wrote:

I mean, look at these TV shows that had licensed music originally...but "Ah ah ah, you didn't pay for the *DVD* rights for this music!" so these old shows get released with music missing and scenes altered or clipped because they can't use the music they already fucking paid for the first time.

It isn't just old shows. I've heard that some newer shows end up with different music on the DVD because they didn't negotiate those rights in advance:

www.wired.com/entertainment/music/news/2003/10/60890

This website purportedly offers royalty-free music, but they still want to get paid something for the music. Maybe you could look for those specific songs elsewhere:

www.musicloops.com/

A long time ago, I made this short film with some friends called GEORGE THE CLOWN...

Is GEORGE THE CLOWN available on DVD?

Michael Barnes wrote:

we used all kinds of unlicensed music- The Faint, Ladytron, Daft Punk...and it was fine.

i have that first faint lp knocking around somewhere. i recall it being good, i should dig it out, if only i wasn't drinking cheap whisky and enjoying dillinger 4 to stop feeling sorry for myself.

Is GEORGE THE CLOWN available on DVD?

YES, it was at least...we had some DVDs and it was also on some short film compilation. It's really kind of terrible. I actually don't have a copy of it anywhere any more though...the one I had was the "illegal" version with the GNR song though.

i have that first faint lp knocking around somewhere. i recall it being good,

"Blank Wave Arcade". It is extremely good. It's post-New Wave sex rock but with a really jagged, angular element and some raw edges...much harder and more honest than the hordes of bands that have tried to do the retro thing. They're actually one of my favorite contemporary bands, "Danse Macabre" is one of my top albums of all time. They've gone totally DIY after dropping out of a deal with Interscope. New record is OK, not as good as the first three.

Is GEORGE THE CLOWN available on DVD?

YES, it was at least...we had some DVDs and it was also on some short film compilation. It's really kind of terrible. I actually don't have a copy of it anywhere any more though...the one I had was the "illegal" version with the GNR song though.

As a Barnes fan, I would like to see one of your films!

Shit, I just realized I have that Faint Cd too somewhere. I think I listened to the whole thing once and moved on because it didn't fit my mood at the time. That mood lasted a few years so the Cd's been long buried. I'll give it another shot and see if it fits now.


As far as the legal thing, if your wife is planning to make it a real business, real legal advice is probably a good idea just to cover herself. I'd imagine the worst thing to happen is she gets shut down or told to cease using the music. But I'd hate to see them come after her for some sort of monetary payment.

The 'making money' part is not an issue. The minute you do something with music apart from listen to it privately you need to pay for it.
If you play a song at a wedding - you are supposed to have the rights to do so.
If you play a song over the PA in your 'college radio' show - you are supposed to have the rights to do so.
Have the radio on in your clothes store - you need the rights to every song that radio station plays.
Cover a song in your garage in front of your cat - you need the rights.

Edit a song into the porn video you made for private use only - need the rights.


Now, that doesn't mean you'll get taken to court - everyone breaks these laws and the Record companies don't sue. But if they wanted to the legal provision is there.

Actually, by the letter of the law Frank is 100% right. The point is that they have established legal grounds for action for almost any kind of non-private use. It's not really enforceable, but it _could_ be. That's where you may ought to be careful.

Frank's post is spot on, the same applies in the UK. Hell, they've got it covered whether you're standing on the north pole, or in a submarine deep in the ocean. And probably even if you're in orbit...

(By the way, I always found it amusing that oil rigs were singled out for a special mention in the VCR/DVD copyright blurb.)

. . . . . . So how's the F:AT theme song coming along then?

Really appreciate all the thoughts on the subject guys.

I think the fact that anything COULD be a legal issue is what the hitch is for us. She of course wants to start off by freelancing, but then seriously wants to look forward to getting bigger and in the DC area I think there's really a market for lots of bigger jobs out there as well as smaller stuff. So really the problem is that if she gets to the point of doing a video for a corporation with a large viewing audience, then anyone looks back on the history of what she's done and takes issue with it then.

I mean, in theory she couldnt use the videos she's done to advertise herself on a website without the proper license.

Then it becomes a matter of how much effort and money would be involved to use how broad a range of songs. A lot to weigh, but thanks again - and keep it up!

I believe there is a limitation of use that is legal- I think if you only use like 15 or 20 seconds of a song then it's not protected. Of course, that's useless.

The rights to most songs are going to be astronomical and well beyond practicality. However, it may be possible to seek permission to use something for free...good luck on something like "Wind Beneath My Wings" though.

I wouldn't worry about retroactively getting in trouble...unless she decided to use "Ride the Lightning" ten years ago and Lars Ulrich catches wind of it.

But some advice beyond the rights thing- she needs to put together a demo reel first and foremost with some clips of her best work. Almost all demo reels are packed wall-to-wall with unlicensed music so don't worry about that. It needs to showcase who she is as an editor/filmmaker and where her skills are. Having a website with an embedded demo reel is absolutely acceptable and recommended.