I'm Tired of these "Super-Niche" Games!!!

I hear "Battlestar Gallactica" is a good game, "IF" you are a fan of the series and "IF" you have the right group.

I can't help but think what a waste. What a waste to cater to such a small group of "gamers" when this game could have really reached the masses and recruited more gamers and broadened the hobby.

My prediction is that this game will be a flash in the pan and WILL NOT reach classic status just because of this narrow minded marketing and game design approach.


Let's look at the proper way to design a game with a license.

Take "Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation" for example



A great game and a great way to use a movie license. Are you a fan of "Lord of the Rings"? You are? Then you will love this game!

Not a fan? Well the game will most likely still be very fun for you.

"Find a niche and serve it" is a tried and true business model. But it seems some companies sometimes distort that business model into:

"Find a SUPER -NICHE and serve it"

It reminds me of the old "Saturday Night Live" sketch where they had a store that just sold Scotch tape! HA!

Remember the Mad Gamer's Business slogan

"If you narrow the niche you will end up in the ditch!"

So BSG is going to suffer the same fate as DUNE, huh?

The good news is that BSG is an awesome- incredible even- game. If you get past the photographs, it's not even really "about" BSG, it's about the concepts, themes, and relationships that the show is about. I don't think you have to know the show to get into it, it has such a strong SF theme that if you don't know Adama from Baltar you can still appreciate the themes and setting on a more general level.

As far as having the right group...well, that's something that effects ALL games. I've played crappy Euros like STIMMT SO with awesome groups and enjoyed it. I've played AT games like WAR ON TERROR with horrible groups and wished that I was dead. You can play Checkers with the wrong person and it'll suck. But that being said, if you play BSG with a bunch of anal retentive "hardcore" gamers who work out the odds on everything and hyperanalyze four turns into the future, yeah, BSG is going to be a disaster.

However, I do kind of hear you about how the license can narrow the market, and I do think that this amazing design really kind of deserves a more "timeless" setting. I also think the game is too "hobby" to really reach out to mainstream fans of the show. So it does kind of fall into a niche in a way...but I think the game is good enough that it will transcend those possible demerits in the same way DUNE has.

I haven't watched an episode of Battlestar Galactica in nearly 30 years. I've heard good things about the current series, but paying $90 a month to the local cable monopoly isn't in the budget right now. I will eventually rent the dvds. Needless to say, I'm not going to buy something just because it's related to Battlestar Galactica.

However, the advance buzz surrounding FFG's Battlestar Galactica was good, and I find that I usually enjoy Fantasy Flight's boardgames. And this new Battlestar Galactica game is a co-op game with potential for multiple traitors, which is definitely a concept that interests me. So I bought it.

I've only played one game of Battlestar Galactica so far, but it was definitely fun. The other players were all fans of the show, but I enjoyed it, too, with only a minimal understanding of basic concepts. I knew that Battlestar Galactica was the name of the big ship, that the Cylons are the bad guys, and the smaller fighter ships that the good guys fly are called Vipers. That is the sum of the knowledge that I brought to the table.

So I don't think that this game is a niche product at all. It would be like saying that only fans of Arthurian legend would enjoy playing Shadows Over Camelot, when in reality, it has potential appeal to fans of co-op games, backstabby Diplomacy players, and open-minded Rummy fans everywhere.

There is perception problem right now, that only Battlestar Galactica fans will like the game. Last Saturday, I spent the day playing boardgames with a group of Jyhad players. They all wanted to try Arkham Horror, so we played two games of that. Then I tried to get them to play Battlestar Galactica but they voted it down because none of them had seen the show. Then we played Prince of the City, which is sort of a boardgame version of Jyhad, which made it ideal for that group anyway.

I assume that you (and most people here at F:AT) have tried Shadows Over Camelot or Betrayal at House on the Hill, so I will compare those two games with Battlestar Galactica, which is the best of the three by a long shot.

Shadows Over Camelot is easier to teach and easier to play, because it's basically a co-op rummy game with an attractive theme pasted on. But SoC sucks as a traitor game, because the traitor doesn't have much to do. He can passive-aggressively sabotage the other players with inefficient play, and that's about it. The traitor rules feel like a clumsy variant that was integrated into the core game at the last minute, without much playtesting.

Betrayal at House on the Hill has a lot more theme, and potentially offers a lot more fun to the traitor player. But specific games tend to be wildly unbalanced, and the scenario rules often lead to confusion and arguments. And some people find the first half of the game to be pointless, though I personally enjoy the exploration. And there is the silly number of chits lacking artwork.

Battlestar Galactica is a tightly balanced game that offers a variety of tactical options each turn. Traitors can actively sabotage skill checks every turn, though they need to be careful or they could end up in the brig. Even loyal team members will need to make difficult choices for which they may come under suspicion. The components are attractive and effective. For a non-fan, this is a very good game. For a fan of the show, it is a fan-tastic game. Don't be a hater and miss out on the fun.

For a non-fan, this is a very good game. For a fan of the show, it is a fan-tastic game. Don't be a hater and miss out on the fun.

Barnes' response is predictable and carries no weight in this argument (this is game is the next Dune, right!)

but your statement is interesting with respect that it is a good game for the non fan.

This is the first time I have heard this from anyone.

Shellhead, how do you like Prince of the City? I want to try that game even though I've heard it suffers from being to long.

I'm not a fan of BSG but I've heard from mulitple sources that its a great game even if you're not a fan. I think if you like Cash n' Guns, then you'll like this one as well.

Steve"gametalk"Avery

Only played once and I've never seen the show at all - This game *rocked* hard and I can't wait to play it again. The theme for me was just gripping SCIFI as a group of humans trying to make it back to earth against robots who could be amongst our number. Super tense and great fun. It actually kinda made me wanna give the show a chance and check it out.

Stephen Avery wrote:

Shellhead, how do you like Prince of the City? I want to try that game even though I've heard it suffers from being to long.

I like Prince of the City, but it does run a little long, about 30 minutes per turn with a full table of five players. It's an interesting hybrid game with variable player powers, area control, some combat and potentially quite a bit of negotiation. Sort of co-op, in that there event cards that pose trouble for all players, though usually some are affected more than others. Aside from co-op efforts to deal with events, Prince of the City is a brutal zero-sum game about grabbing, wielding and holding power. It's mostly AmeriTrash, but there are a few Euro elements, especially the vp track around the border of the board.

The first two times I played Prince of the City, I played with Vampire larp people, and they found the game a little too long and too heavy. I thought that was an unjust criticism from people who are willing to learn and play an even more complex game for four hours at a time while wearing costumes. The last time I played was with Jyhad (Vampire: the Eternal Struggle) players, and they really enjoyed Prince of the City. To them, the game was relatively easy, but offered the same mixture of violence, negotiation and underhandedness that they enjoy in Jyhad.

I suspect that even gamers who aren't fans of the World of Darkness could potentially enjoy Prince of the City, depending on the players. Despite a few Euro elements, it would take gamers who appreciate theme and heavy interaction to bring Prince of the City to life. Introverted EuroGamers would drag it down to an uninteresting exercise in chit manipulation.

Got BSG on order, despite the fact I pretty much hate the later seasons of the show. So if it's crap I'll be sure to let you know steve.

But there are many non 'niche' games, set on farms and kings courts and stuff. Maybe try those.

Got BSG on order, despite the fact I pretty much hate the later seasons of the show. So if it's crap I'll be sure to let you know steve.

But there are many non 'niche' games, set on farms and kings courts and stuff. Maybe try those.
Please note, although no boardcode and smiley buttons are shown, they are still useable

Looking forward to your review! I have no doubt you will tell it like it is , however the fact that you like the early seasons of the show still make you a fan.

I am still not buying that the game will fly with non fans of BSG.

Steve, I've never watched the series I've played the game once and LOVED IT. The tension, accusations... the fucking experience was amazing. Like any game the only thing you "need" is the right group of people.

I've got some buddies (a couple of fans and a couple of non-fans) coming over this weekend to play. I'll post their reactions next week.

Interesting.

I will watch for your post.

Steve, have you seen BSG? I wonder if part of your doubt has to do with not having seen the show. It's _not_ one of those ubernerd, kitschy bullshit shows like FIREFLY, LEXX, BABYLON 5, et al. It's much more timeless and universal- there's a reason the show has been more successful than that TV SF trash that comes out, gets cancelled, and a bunch of chubby girls start wearing t-shirts decrying its cancellation. Unlike those shows that are ABOUT robots and spaceships and assorted SF trappings without any serious underpinnings or actual themes, BSG is ABOUT human nature, survival, fear, paranoia, social and political crises, impossible decisions, faith, and moral ambiguity. All of those things are what the board game is actually ABOUT. And those are things that anyone can connect with.

So therefore, I think those things translate through the mechanics to even non-fans. DUNE does the same thing- even someone who's never read Herbert is going to get the gist of indigenous people fighting against exploitation/imperialism, the arrival of a Messiah, giant corporations meddling in political affairs, and treachery. DUNE may be set in the Herbert world, but its themes and significance go beyond the license.

If this were a game about FIREFLY, then _I'd_ be saying that non-fans probably should steer clear. Because I would know that would be a game ABOUT FIREFLY, not anything else.

Steve, have you seen BSG?

I tried to watch it but to me it is terrible. Some of the worst acting ever on a TV show. It is a point of great contention between my brother and me. My brother LOVES the show and met the actors at Dragoncon several years ago.

The actors are trying so hard to avoid a "kitschy" show as you say, or to avoid a Shatner "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN" moment that they come across as boring.

I can understand why the show is liked by nerds because this "emotionless" acting feeds their own "Spock Personalities" but the show is overated , lifeless, dull and to me unwatchable. The serious themes you speak about are played out with such lack of passion that watching paint dry is more exciting.

However, my dislike for the show is not the reason I am down on this game. My point is that if you are going to use a license don't paint with so fine a brush.

It looks like a cheap cash grab for nerd money too. I appreciate creativity in gaming rather than slapped on themes. I much prefer the original Sci Fi universe of Nexus Ops. It belongs to the gamer. Let them make a Nexus Ops movie, not the other way around.

Looks like we are in for more "lack of creativity" with the "Gears of War" game.

But with so many of you saying BSG is good for non fans I will try with my group and report back.