What BEER(s) have you been drinking?

I got a sampler pack of Saranac. It's good stuff, with the Black & Tan being my favorite so far.

MattLoter wrote:

We had a party/BBQ and I'm still keeping busy ripping through the huge pile of PBR we had left over. I was surprised by how much I enjoy it. It's certainly a change of pace from all the super serious homebrews/craft I usually drink.

Being sort of new to beer and having skipped out on being a college drinker (I drank the fuck out of shitty hood 40s in high school, then took ten years off only getting into drinking cause I started brewing) I think a lot of people like to get all nose in the air about cheap beer, but fuck them. Some cheap "shitty" beer is damn fine drinkin. Coors light can fuck right off though.

How are you enjoying that novelty of drinking out of the can?

There is definitely a lot snobbishness in beer drinking. The cheap beers are made to taste the way they do because it appeals to the most people. My wife worked for several years at a US brewery, and the engineers they hired can literally make anything out of beer....easily can make what most micro-breweries make.

I agree with MB and Dogmatix --- Dogfish Head Breweries gets a big thumbs down from me. Tonight, just having an Old Speckled Hen, a Newcastle Brown Ale (which is turning into my "go to" beer) and something a dude a work made.....jury is still out on that one.

Space Ghost wrote:

Tonight, just having an Old Speckled Hen, a Newcastle Brown Ale (which is turning into my "go to" beer) and something a dude a work made.....jury is still out on that one.

Old'Hen is actually one of my personal go-to beers. It's the "other tall can" in the fridge when I'm tired of Boddingtons....

Space Ghost wrote:

Tonight, just having an Old Speckled Hen, a Newcastle Brown Ale (which is turning into my "go to" beer) and something a dude a work made.....jury is still out on that one.

Old'Hen is actually one of my personal go-to beers. It's the "other tall can" in the fridge when I'm tired of Boddingtons....

mjl1783 wrote:

...Comes in cans, which is something I hope is becoming more and more of a thing- less environmental impact, and let's face it, drinking beer out of cans is _fun_.

Here's hoping it doesn't.

First of all, there are too many variables involved with getting an aluminum can to your lips vs. a glass bottle that cans don't necessarily represent a smaller environmental impact. Besides, most of these craft brewers are tree-huggin' hippie fuckers anyway. They're already printing their labels with soy ink, recycling their spent mash as cow feed, and operating brewpubs that use organic, local produce, so get off their goddamn backs already.

And, this is just my experience, but I find people (myself included) are less likely to recycle cans than glass. Cans get mangled easily, plus they're lightweight and easy enough to just throw away. Glass bottles are big, bulky, and pile up quickly, so there's more of an incentive to get rid of them quickly and properly.

Also, it doesn't matter what the beer comes in, because you're supposed to pour it into a glass. Beer needs to be allowed to breathe. The pour stirs up all those wonderful aromas, which is important because you taste with your nose more than you do with your tongue. And why would you want to miss out on the visual aspect of drinking beer? The head, the lacing, the color... that's all part of the full experience of drinking beer.

But even if you are going to drink straight from the original container, give me glass any day of the week. Beer out of cans tends to take on a metallic taste after a while, and I haven't found any beer so far that's immune to this quality. Beer in bottles can fall victim to oxidation pretty easily if left in direct, bright light, but you can still knock a bit of that skunk out of it if you pour it like you're supposed to.

But yes, I'll grant you drinking beer out of cans is fun. It's fun, though, because it's a novelty. Once it becomes more of a thing, it won't still be fun.

Totally agree with all of this, except for the novelty part. Beers in cans have been around forever in Canada.

Space Ghost wrote:

There is definitely a lot snobbishness in beer drinking. The cheap beers are made to taste the way they do because it appeals to the most people.

That's because they hardly taste anything. The North-American macros all do variations on light-tasting lagers because that's what most people like to drink. "Not too much taste with my beer please."

Wanting to try something different and tasty has nothing to do with being snobbish. Are you a snob because you want to play something different than Risk and Monopoly? Europe has a long history of different styles far from the ubiquitous lagers, although Eastern Europe pilsners are generally pretty light tasting too, although a different kind or taste to lagers.

Over here we get the Old Speckled Hen in bottles rather than cans. Boddington's and all those ciders are still in cans though.

I really dig the Sarnac Black & Tan. They are overall a sort of mixed bag for me though, some of their stuff is great, some not so much.

Wanting to try and enjoy something different isn't snobbish, but being a better-than-you elitist dick about what you drink sure is. And a whole lot of people are. If people have a great time playing Risk, good for them. I'm no better/cooler because I prefer War of the Ring for my dudes on a map fix.

Totally agree with all of this, except for the novelty part. Beers in cans have been around forever in Canada.

Oh, excuse me all to hell. Allow me to rephrase: Drinking good beer out of a can is a novelty. Most of what comes in cans is shit, except for the few microbreweries that use them and some of the macro nitro stuff, and you're really not supposed to drink straight from a nitro can.

There is definitely a lot snobbishness in beer drinking. The cheap beers are made to taste the way they do because it appeals to the most people. My wife worked for several years at a US brewery, and the engineers they hired can literally make anything out of beer....easily can make what most micro-breweries make.

Bullshit. The reason cheap beer tastes like it does is that it's made with cheap shit. Originally, this was done because it was the only way to keep up with demand right after prohibition was repealed, now it's just done because price beats quality more often than not in the marketplace.

People drink cheap beer because it's cheap, not because they like how it tastes. Very rarely do I find that somebody who drinks crappy beer will choose a Bud Light over a Newcastle, Red Stripe, Harp, or some other macro import if their dollar's not on the line.

Belgian-style ales and double IPAs will always appeal to a fairly small portion of beer drinkers, but if was price wasn't a factor, so would fizzy piss beer.

Yeeeeah...I'm with MJ on this.

American macros and "cheap beer" is _awful_. It's not snobbishness, it's the fact that it tastes like fucking boiled cereal- because of all the cheaper, non-beer ingredients they use to make it, like rice and corn. Also because it's mass produced on a massive scale, and it's made to cater to the tastes of a population that has had its tastebuds completely fucking annihilated by ultra-sweet food rich in high fructose corn syrup, fast food made with products that are literally one step short of not being legal for human consumption, and bizarro frankenfoods like all those factory-made frozen pastries or stuffed crust pizzas. People have no fucking clue what food is supposed to taste like anymore because they've gotten so accustomed to corporate-produced, factory farmed foods that are loaded down with unnecessary ingredients, sweeteners, and what more or less may as well be sawdust, because it aint' food. And that kind of food and drink is _cheap_, and people are more worried about saving a dollar than they are about what they're putting into their bodies.

So it makes since that Joe Sixpack drinks a Michelob or a Miller High Life. But there's no defending it as far as I'm concerned, because it's not the way beer- or any kind of food or drink- is supposed to be made or consumed.

And now the big thing is for the macros to pretend like they're craft breweries, like Blue Moon with its "artisinal" advertising and all the fake indie labels long Long Hammer, all owned by the corporations.

I _hated_ beer for years until two or three years ago when I had something other than the "college"/macro beers. I couldn't believe how good it was, how varied the flavors were, and how there were differences in tone, taste, mouthfeel, color, and so on. I had never had anything more exotic than a Heineken, and getting into the microbrews and better imports really opened my eyes about how beer SHOULD be.

If I'm at a party or something and the beers there are macros, I won't have any. I'd rather just drink water.

Surly's decision to sell beer in cans appears to have been a result of the fact that when they started up, they found a cheap, used canning operation that they could import from the Dominican Republic. They have bottled a couple things (Surly Four that came out earlier this year, for example), but it had to have been through an arrangement with someone else.

But yeah, I wouldn't drink it straight from the can, it always goes into a glass. Thankfully they are so successful around here that I bet none of their beer sits on the shelf long enough to pick up any of the ill effects of being in a can.

Damn, dude. Lighten up.

Me? I just adding info for anyone that's curious (probably no one), it wasn't my intention to sound defensive or be a Surly apologist. Man, tough crowd.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Yeeeeah...I'm with MJ on this.

American macros and "cheap beer" is _awful_. It's not snobbishness, it's the fact that it tastes like fucking boiled cereal- because of all the cheaper, non-beer ingredients they use to make it, like rice and corn. Also because it's mass produced on a massive scale, and it's made to cater to the tastes of a population that has had its tastebuds completely fucking annihilated by ultra-sweet food rich in high fructose corn syrup, fast food made with products that are literally one step short of not being legal for human consumption, and bizarro frankenfoods like all those factory-made frozen pastries or stuffed crust pizzas. People have no fucking clue what food is supposed to taste like anymore because they've gotten so accustomed to corporate-produced, factory farmed foods that are loaded down with unnecessary ingredients, sweeteners, and what more or less may as well be sawdust, because it aint' food. And that kind of food and drink is _cheap_, and people are more worried about saving a dollar than they are about what they're putting into their bodies.



And now the big thing is for the macros to pretend like they're craft breweries, like Blue Moon with its "artisinal" advertising and all the fake indie labels long Long Hammer, all owned by the corporations.

I _hated_ beer for years until two or three years ago when I had something other than the "college"/macro beers. I couldn't believe how good it was, how varied the flavors were, and how there were differences in tone, taste, mouthfeel, color, and so on. I had never had anything more exotic than a Heineken, and getting into the microbrews and better imports really opened my eyes about how beer SHOULD be.

If I'm at a party or something and the beers there are macros, I won't have any. I'd rather just drink water.

From personl experience, disagree with both you and mj. First, most brewers have degrees in chemical engineering, and are from top notch programs if they work at a major brewery. I've had several beers that are in the unofficial "test and development" phase that are easily on par with anything done at a micro-brewery. Of course, as mj pointed out, cost factors in, but there are plenty of product runs done locally where they try out whether something is going to sell. Often times, the American consumer wants the light beer that is reflected in what most brewers make.

Nice rant, but it seems like something that is only tangentially related but you feel passionate about. Here is my retort

For instance, with Budweiser, the formula for the beer has been the same for 5 generations since it started in 1876, before prohibition, the depression (which forced some companies to change their formula due to demand and resource scarcity), and the high-fructose corn syrup diet. Rice is used because Missouri is historically one of the top rice producing states and rice serves to lighten the color and the taste of the beer. Often times, the quality of rice used by Anheuser-Busch is classified as "brewer's rice" and is exspensive as the barley used in other beers (I can't speak to corn, so that could be driven by the abundance of corn in the US). The quality matters so much, AB will guarantee farmers to purchase their entire crops as long as it meets their specification (this has been going on in the Missouri River Delta for as long as I can remember). The one thing that does change is the ratio of hops that are in the beer. For years, this was downscaled to increase drinkability (which is simply a measure of how many beers a person will drink in one sitting, which is clearly related to how much they can sell). Several scientific studies and internal market research shows that the pallette becomes fatigued if there is too much bitterness, and the consumer is likely to drink less. Now, the pendulum is swinging back the other way, where they are starting to add more hops due to loss of market share with micro-breweries.


For what it's worth, comments like this

So it makes since that Joe Sixpack drinks a Michelob or a Miller High Life. But there's no defending it as far as I'm concerned, because it's not the way beer- or any kind of food or drink- is supposed to be made or consumed.

are elitist/snobby by definition. It is the way that the beer has been made for 140+ years, prior to the concerns that your rant brings up. It is the way that is designed to taste (for what is worth, rice was introduced in the beer making processing in Germany in the early 1800s...which makes sense for the continued use of rice by AB, since that is where they originated).

And, just because it is ran by a corporation doesn't invalidate its quality. Michelob for instance is made from barley and imported European hops (another crop AB guarantees to buy the fully if meeting specification) and has been around since the 1890s. Take a tour of their barley and hops farms, the quality control is un-fucking-believable. Everything is designed to taste a certain way, and exactly the same way, for millions of batches of beer. It is really a testament to large industry quality control and reliability.

And, if you are really interseted in getting some more facts that lay outside your anti-corporate viewpoint, check out Maureen Ogle's book "Ambitious Brew". Additionally, a nice quote from George Ehret (owner of the largest brewery in the US) circa 1891:

"The data (on US barley usage) here will be better understood, if it be borne in mind that all light beers of that peculiarly vinous taste, which has late
become somewhat popular, are made of malt and rice or corn, as in the case of the excellent Pilsen brands. The prevailing taste, however, still calls for a brewage
of a deep reddish-brown color, peculiar to heavily-malted beers, such as emanate from Hell Gate Brewery."

Market forces quickly showed that consumers really did prefer the Pilsner over the heavily-malted beers with AB and other major breweries ovetaking them permanently.

Thanks Spaceghost, I'm with you.

I always freely admit that I'm a beer snob/elitist. I don't drink to get drunk, I drink to enjoy what I'm drinking and usually pair it with food. I like beers that taste good preferably having complex flavors and in my years of experience I've found that cheap macro beers do not even compare to stuff like the Belgian abbey ales or some of the finer micro-brews as far as taste goes. I also don't eat at fast food restaurants because the food tastes bland compared even to average pub food let alone something from a nice sit-down restaurant.

Oh, Space Ghost...we gonna get into it...I know you work in some capacity in this industry, but I think you're looking at it from the top down here.

Nice rant, but it seems like something that is only tangentially related but you feel passionate about.

No, it's not a tangent. The problems with macrobrews are very similar to those in other mass-production food industries. And yes, it is something I'm very passionate about- so much of our health, well-being, and happiness is tied to what we eat and drink. And it's a travesty that whatever is a dollar cheaper and easier routinely trumps wholesome, natural foods and beverages. America is full of fat people, if you didn't notice, and increasingly this is the case elsewhere in the world as corporate control of the food supply continues unabated and palates adjust to what they're selling. That includes beer.

I've had several beers that are in the unofficial "test and development" phase that are easily on par with anything done at a micro-brewery.

Oh, I'm sure you have and I don't doubt it at all...it's when those beers get to the "how do make X number of them and sell them at Y price" that things start to go in the crapper. I'm sure the fast food chains, who have actual chefs come up with their recipes, probably have some pretty darn good food in the T&D phase too.

For instance, with Budweiser, the formula for the beer has been the same for 5 generations since it started in 1876, before prohibition, the depression (which forced some companies to change their formula due to demand and resource scarcity), and the high-fructose corn syrup diet.

That's all well and good, but I'd be willing to bet you money that if we went back in time a hundred years a Budweiser beer wouldn't taste anything like it does today, for a variety of reasons- again, mostly tied to mass production and cost control. I'd be willing to bet that Budweiser used to be _good_.

You could just as easily say that McDonalds' makes hamburgers the way they've been made forever...which is true, but hamburgers didn't use to be made with cheaply raised, hormones-laced beef grown on burned-down rainforests in South America or topped with artificially flavored cheeses and condiments.

Yuengling claims to be the only brewery still making a pre-prohibition style lager. But you know what? It doesn't taste very good. It could be that modern brewing methods have _improved_ beer, at least when made in small quantities and for more sophisticated palates. Yes, I'm a beer and food snob, but at least it has a purpose.

Several scientific studies and internal market research shows that the pallette becomes fatigued if there is too much bitterness, and the consumer is likely to drink less.

See, it's fucked up that this kind of research exists in relation to creating food and drink...it's like when I go into a fast food restaraunt(which I haven't in three years now), it's just crazy to think that they've likely done studies on how long someone will sit in their seats and they've selected chairs according to this data to maximize turnover. But when you're selling beer at this level,you've got to have that kind of research, I guess.

Everything is designed to taste a certain way, and exactly the same way, for millions of batches of beer.

See what I mean? This is insane. Things like beer should have natural fluctuations. But it is what it is,if you've got a billion dollar brand like Budweiser, every one of those billions of beers has to taste the same. Hence the quality control you mention. It isn't to preserve a high level quality, it's to preserve _consistency_.

There's a lot of analogues here to chocolate. Most people like milk chocolate, and specifically most people like Hershey's or Nestle's style milk chocolate. Which really isn't very chocolate-tasting at all. Because it's cheaply made in mass quantity, and its taste is homogenized for a more general palate. The gulf between a Hershey's kiss (which I think tastes absolutely disgusting) and a single-origin chocolate with high cacao percentage is immense. Most people wouldn't like the higher end, more traditionally made chocolate, they'd like the cheap, mass produced one. Because it's _designed_ for them to like it. That's really fucked up to me.

Cheese is the same way too. Most people like mild, softer cheeses. Fewer like the more natural, traditionally made artisinal cheeses.

With beer, more people are obviously going to like the more homogenic, less singular taste of the macros. Some don't even care about the taste, they just care about the alcohol. A lot of macro beer drinkers will tell you that they don't even really like the taste of beer. That's fucked up.

It's interesting to see the macros try to deal with the loss of marketshare like you're talking about, with Bud Light (I think) putting a little hops logo on the bottles and that travesty of a wheat beer they put out recently.

But cheap beer will prevail, regardless of how I live my life...it's no surprise given that most people would rather drink a fucking diet coke loaded with chemical sweeteners over a glass of water or fruit juice.